Headers Install

Tony Conti

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Ok when I get off of work today I’ll check the o2’s and see what I have going on. I know they’re the correct ones cause I remember those part numbers on the boxes. Fingers crossed that they’re just backwards. I’ll give an update around 7-8 ish tonight


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Tony Conti

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Since you posted you used the NTK 22060\22500 NB O2 sensors (which are front\rear specific), you can look at the sensor leads to ID 1 from the other externally. The NTK 22060 sensors (pre-cat or front) have a shorter lead that doesn't have any stud mounting clips attached to them. The NTK 22500 sensors (post-cat or rear) have the longer leads w\ 2 stud mounting clips attached to them.
Internally, here's a picture of a NTK 22060\NTK 22500 NB O2 sensor's element shield placed end to end:
View attachment 86420The larger element shield (lower) is the NTK 22060 front\pre-cat NB O2 sensor.....................

If I read your postings correctly, you swapped out a set of BBK full-length LTH's for a set of Kooks mid-length LTH's, yes? If this is so, then IMHO, I don't think the tune's current O2 sensor transport delay map settings is the main culprit triggering the P0133\P0153 DTC's since the physical O2 sensor mounting position distance from the exhaust ports are closer......but this also will depend on how far the TD map settings were changed from OEM to accommodate the BBK LTH's.

What I'm typing below is related to a SO PCM (which you have) & the tune within it:

A P0133\P0153 O2 Sensor Slow to Respond DTC (B1S1\B2S1) is mainly due to the O2 sensor V\ms transition rate between 600mV (rich line) to 300mV (lean line) or vice-versa being out of bounds (below the slow threshold) from when the PCM calls for a fueling switch from either rich or lean to when the O2 sensor voltage actually responds to this change in fueling around stoichiometry (usually within 100 ms time frame). If these sensors did get swapped, I can definitely see these DTC's coming up due to knowing the NTK 22500's (rear or post-cat) weren't designed for engine fueling control thus are slower responding compared to the NTK 22060's........that is, if they got swapped around.

The O2 Sensor Transport Delay map settings are a measurement in time (seconds) from when the PCM commands a fuel injector to start injecting fuel into a cylinder to when the PCM applies a fueling correction from the O2 sensor reaction to the exhaust from said cylinder, based on the engine RPM's at the time. The PCM will adjust these settings to correct this timing within a set window in the tune so as long as the actual timing falls within this correction window, the PCM can remove this out of the equation......except whenever the engine load drops below .20 load (below this threshold O2 TD timing correction\learning is disabled) thus if this is causing an issue w\ O2 sensor response time it will be mostly during engine idle (low RPM threshold is also set @ 1,000 RPM's, below this O2 TD timing correction\learning is disabled)......which IMHO is very doubtful since the physical O2 sensor mounting distance is closer to exhaust ports in the Kooks LTH's than the BBK LTH's (which would actually physically speed up the idle & overall O2 TD timing signals instead of slowing them down). Most tuners do not touch any of these in-tune TD control settings......only the actual timing settings in the TD map.

The Kooks LTH's will almost run off the OEM O2 TD map settings w\o issue (the only area where they can get into trouble is during idle when the TD learning\correction is disabled) & the only other in-tune setting that can directly affect O2 sensor TD timing is the injector reference CA timing setting (sets injector EOIT to camshaft adv dur IVO timing point....thus sets when an injector will be commanded open.....this setting will also change based on any commanded cam retard timing).

Since you haven't had the tune touched during this LTH swap out, I highly doubt your issue is tune related & you're already on the right track to start off TS'ing...........

My 2 cents................hope this helps.

We’ll i looked under the car and I have the o2’s where they should be… not sure what to look at right now.


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GlassTop09

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We’ll i looked under the car and I have the o2’s where they should be… not sure what to look at right now.


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Ok, since you've now established that the O2 sensors are installed correctly & you have access to a scan tool that can display FF data (even better if it can display Mode 6 data), record the existing FF data (if you still have it available) for reference then perform a hard reset on PCM (remove neg batt cable to fully drain capacitors to fully clear KAM.....use a jumper from the neg batt cable to positive batt cable while neg is disconnected from batt to speed up capacitor drainage, this method gets this done as fast as 30 secs....been there, done that) & allow the PCM to relearn all again since LTH install is completed, especially the 1st cold start all the way thru to full hot idle (roughly 35-45 mins) to allow PCM to fully read\see the O2 sensor activity from OL thru CL (from fully cold thru full hot idle while all O2 sensor TD learning\correction is disabled) so the PCM can fully see\read the front O2 sensor switching rates at full hot idle.

Then drive the car normally, preferably thru a full drive cycle, to allow PCM to read\test O2 sensor activity then check PCM w\ scan tool to see if 1.) the O2 sensor IM Readiness checks pass & 2.) if they did not complete, then check for pending P0133\P0153 to show again. If no pending DTC's or FF data is present, then continue driving car normally until you get some results. If you get a O2 sensor IM Readiness complete, then you know the PCM saw all O2 sensor operation\activity as good.

I'm typing this as I'm assuming that the NTK sensors you've installed may be new sensors in which sometimes they need a little time to "break in" or existing sensors that have been installed in a different set of headers that have changed the exhaust flow or in a different position in the header collectors that cause the O2 sensors to react differently (would have helped if the MAF data at idle had been recorded prior header change then recorded post header change to see if this has changed), especially if MAF flow showed to have increased (from all my data checks when encountering these DTC's, the issue has always been the O2 sensor got too slow switching from lean to rich....never saw this occur due to a slow rich to lean switch) thus may be due to slow O2 sensor warmup.......the PCM is acknowledging the front O2 sensors are working, just got too slow to switch fast enough at some time(s) dropping below the thresholds to set off a MIL. This can happen from time-to-time w\ engine going thru a DFCO event (fuel cutoff during coast w\ APP at full rest.....engine is pumping air only thru exhaust which can cool the O2 sensors element enough to slow response until it heats back up) then engine operation restart (info you can get from FF data can give a lot of clues).

Hopefully from a reset\relearn all this will go away, but the data gathering can help you to figure out what's causing them.

Hope this helps.
 

Tony Conti

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Thank you for giving so much input, I really appreciate it. I have access to livelink gen 2 through the sct x4 I have but I’ve never really used it at all. I’ll hook it up after I get the battery connected and I’ll mess around on there and see what I can find.


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Juice

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Thank you for giving so much input, I really appreciate it. I have access to livelink gen 2 through the sct x4 I have but I’ve never really used it at all. I’ll hook it up after I get the battery connected and I’ll mess around on there and see what I can find.



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I have live link, I dont recall it having access to Mode 6 test results.
 
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Tony Conti

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I wanted to follow up with an update on this topic.

I disconnected the battery and let everything reset, then when I was going to drive the car I started it and let it warm up until it was at full operating temp. I did this every time before I drove it no matter what, so far I've driven it 400 miles and no check engine lights or weird issues. Before, right after the headers were on I got the MIL on in about 20 miles so I think the computer just needed to be reset and make its adjustments for the headers.

Unfortunately I have to take the car in to E-check when they're open and have an employee plug in the obd2 scanner to test the system because I took it to the self scanner and it didn't fail but came up as "not ready for testing" because the catalyst monitoring system hadn't completed all of its checks yet. Thankfully now they don't pop hood and they only look for cats underneath so I'm good. I'm working a lot right now so I don't have a lot of time to come on here or work on my shit so that's why I haven't updated anything in a while. After it passes hopefully I'll have some time to take it up to the tuner to get the tune cleaned up.

Also I need to get adjustable motor mounts because on the passenger side one of the pipes is hitting the frame rail when I accelerate at like 50% throttle.
 

07 Boss

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Also I need to get adjustable motor mounts because on the passenger side one of the pipes is hitting the frame rail when I accelerate at like 50% throttle.


You may be able to loosen the mounts and slide the motor over a bit toward the driver's side. You might gain enough room.
 

GlassTop09

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Unfortunately I have to take the car in to E-check when they're open and have an employee plug in the obd2 scanner to test the system because I took it to the self scanner and it didn't fail but came up as "not ready for testing" because the catalyst monitoring system hadn't completed all of its checks yet.
Good deal the PCM isn't kicking out any permanent DTC's (MIL on) but you are aware that your SCT X4 can pull the IM Readiness monitors from the PCM (looks for any pending\permanent DTC's & if they're present it will display them for you to see........w\o having to go thru the E-check self scanner). This usually indicates that the PCM is showing\in P1000 DTC which is usual for a PCM that was KAM reset & waiting on all necessary monitors to initially run\complete (only allowed to have 1 incomplete monitor so you most likely have 2 INC.........usually catalyst & EVAP are the 2 monitors the PCM is waiting on to finish IM Readiness & display status).

As Juice has noted, your SCT X4 tuner won't pull any Mode 6 PCM Self-Check data........you'll need to acquire a general OBDII scan tool at a minimum that has the ability to pull Mode 6 data.......there are several to choose from that are very inexpensive (as low as $35.00 & up) that can do this.......even the ones that HF sells can read\collect Mode 6 data but IMHO Amazon is your friend here.................

If I'm reading your posting correctly (you say the E-check self scanner checks show "not ready for testing" due to catalyst monitoring hasn't completed all its checks yet), this indicates to me that your issue now most likely isn't the front 2 NB O2 sensors operations per se, it's the cat CE ratio checks--catalyst monitors--haven't completed but these are due to the PCM looking at the rear O2 sensor to front O2 sensor switching rates haven't completed filling all 3 cell data criteria (50 switch, 70 switch, 30 switch at specific engine RPM, ECT, MAF, cat operating temps, MPH, load%, etc) for PCM to then run this monitor. This also can be due to your new Kooks Hi Flow "Green" cats substrates needing to initially "break in" treating your exhaust as well so is somewhat normal to be a little slow on initial operation.......meaning you may need to get them good & hot to fully excite the cat substrates while at the same time the PCM will need to fully adjust the front NB O2 sensor switching amplitude rates according to the rear NB O2 sensor readings to help excite the cats so the PCM can finish recording the necessary cell data to optimize the cat treating efficiency since these cats are new (are also much smaller in substrate treating area vs an OEM cat so PCM may need some drive time for all this to get fully lined out.......less overall substrate treating area vs engine exhaust mass poundage output equals less excess treating overhead capacity but the substrates in these cats are made of metal foil instead of ceramic thus may need to get heated up some more to fully excite the rare metals bonded to them......this is a flip side to using hi flow cats.....generally you get less overall exhaust treating capacity in exchange for reduced exhaust flow deltaP or pressure drop thru them) so IMHO get some more driving time on them to get them good & hot (freeway driving between 55-70 MPH should do it.......if you have some inclined roads the extra engine loads will also drive more heat into them as well......FYI).

Now in this area is where your current tune can have an effect........since the cats have been physically relocated closer to the engine exhaust ports w\ your new Kooks LTH\catted midpipe vs your BBK LTH\catted midpipe, this in theory should put\maintain more avg exhaust heat into the cats but since I don't know how the O2 sensors were\are setup in your touched (not OEM) tune file......especially their heater DC settings (these settings have a BIG impact on NB O2 sensor operation\accuracy) I can only speculate.

Enough for now...........hope this helps.
 

Tony Conti

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You may be able to loosen the mounts and slide the motor over a bit toward the driver's side. You might gain enough room.

Appreciate the info, I did this when I was getting ready to bolt everything back up. When it’s sitting there idling it has a gap that I can see between the headers and frame rail but once it gets past 2,500 to 3k rpm it’ll hit the frame rail. The motor mounts are original so they’re probably about due anyways.


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Tony Conti

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Good deal the PCM isn't kicking out any permanent DTC's (MIL on) but you are aware that your SCT X4 can pull the IM Readiness monitors from the PCM (looks for any pending\permanent DTC's & if they're present it will display them for you to see........w\o having to go thru the E-check self scanner). This usually indicates that the PCM is showing\in P1000 DTC which is usual for a PCM that was KAM reset & waiting on all necessary monitors to initially run\complete (only allowed to have 1 incomplete monitor so you most likely have 2 INC.........usually catalyst & EVAP are the 2 monitors the PCM is waiting on to finish IM Readiness & display status).

As Juice has noted, your SCT X4 tuner won't pull any Mode 6 PCM Self-Check data........you'll need to acquire a general OBDII scan tool at a minimum that has the ability to pull Mode 6 data.......there are several to choose from that are very inexpensive (as low as $35.00 & up) that can do this.......even the ones that HF sells can read\collect Mode 6 data but IMHO Amazon is your friend here.................

If I'm reading your posting correctly (you say the E-check self scanner checks show "not ready for testing" due to catalyst monitoring hasn't completed all its checks yet), this indicates to me that your issue now most likely isn't the front 2 NB O2 sensors operations per se, it's the cat CE ratio checks--catalyst monitors--haven't completed but these are due to the PCM looking at the rear O2 sensor to front O2 sensor switching rates haven't completed filling all 3 cell data criteria (50 switch, 70 switch, 30 switch at specific engine RPM, ECT, MAF, cat operating temps, MPH, load%, etc) for PCM to then run this monitor. This also can be due to your new Kooks Hi Flow "Green" cats substrates needing to initially "break in" treating your exhaust as well so is somewhat normal to be a little slow on initial operation.......meaning you may need to get them good & hot to fully excite the cat substrates while at the same time the PCM will need to fully adjust the front NB O2 sensor switching amplitude rates according to the rear NB O2 sensor readings to help excite the cats so the PCM can finish recording the necessary cell data to optimize the cat treating efficiency since these cats are new (are also much smaller in substrate treating area vs an OEM cat so PCM may need some drive time for all this to get fully lined out.......less overall substrate treating area vs engine exhaust mass poundage output equals less excess treating overhead capacity but the substrates in these cats are made of metal foil instead of ceramic thus may need to get heated up some more to fully excite the rare metals bonded to them......this is a flip side to using hi flow cats.....generally you get less overall exhaust treating capacity in exchange for reduced exhaust flow deltaP or pressure drop thru them) so IMHO get some more driving time on them to get them good & hot (freeway driving between 55-70 MPH should do it.......if you have some inclined roads the extra engine loads will also drive more heat into them as well......FYI).

Now in this area is where your current tune can have an effect........since the cats have been physically relocated closer to the engine exhaust ports w\ your new Kooks LTH\catted midpipe vs your BBK LTH\catted midpipe, this in theory should put\maintain more avg exhaust heat into the cats but since I don't know how the O2 sensors were\are setup in your touched (not OEM) tune file......especially their heater DC settings (these settings have a BIG impact on NB O2 sensor operation\accuracy) I can only speculate.

Enough for now...........hope this helps.

I got in the car this morning and drove it to work, literally 5 miles in the MIL came back on and I got the codes again lmao. At work right now so I can’t do anything.


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Pentalab

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I used steeda eng mounts when I had the JBA LT's installed. The steeda mounts offer the option of stock eng height, or eng lowered by 1/4" - 1/2" - 3/4". I used the 1/4" lowered option. Then the steeda fron STB over the eng cleared the roush CAI tube assy a bit better. It also lowered the CG a bit.

The steeda eng mounts are a lot stiffer vs the oem (hydra gel filled) mounts. Steering shaft clears the primary's just fine. With ur foot into it, the eng is trying to lift on drivers side..and down on the pass side.

The steeda mounts came with 4 x red mounts...and 2 x black mounts. The black mounts are a stiffer durometer. The stiffest combo is one red + one black on each side. (black on top, and red below...on driver's side)...... and..... (black on bottom, and red on top..... on pass side).

On a side note, the steeda eng mounts for the GT-500 only came with 4 x black mounts.
 

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62752-ad151e8e115a28399a61fe9bb7ebff87.jpg

Like these?

There's a new pair for sale in the parts section... LOL
 

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Like these?

There's a new pair for sale in the parts section... LOL


I use them w/the red and they work great. No major noticeable NVH over stock. Lowered my engine 3/4" allowing me to retain my strut bar for a DOB blower install. One of the better upgrades in my opinion. Can be a bit tricky installing them. (i.e. Be careful during installation; you have to hold the bottom half (or tape it) else you risk dropping it into the frame. Also, depending on how far you lower the engine you may need to use one of the shorter bolts; I did.
 

ghunt81

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I kept my stock mounts and shimmed them up 1/4", don't know if I needed the clearance but I did it anyway. I have had no clearance issues whatsoever. Stock mounts have 106K on them now and still doing good!
 

GlassTop09

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I got in the car this morning and drove it to work, literally 5 miles in the MIL came back on and I got the codes again lmao. At work right now so I can’t do anything.


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Ok, I'll presume that "the codes" means the same P0133\P0153 DTC's you reported initially, yes?
Now if you followed the process that I typed in post #43 then this is giving me the info that I needed to close in on this issue.........there's a method to this.

For info to chew on, P0133\P0153 B1S1\B2S1 Slow to Respond DTC's are due to the PCM running a specific response test to check the front NB O2 sensors amplitude swing from lean to rich by calling for a 1.5Hz extra voltage add to the fuel injector PWM signal derived from calc'd fueling to add to the calc'd air mass to hit Lambda 1.0 while engine RPM's are between 1,000-2,000, engine load is between 20%-50%, STFT's are between -9% thru 11%, MPH is between 30-80, RPM variance has to be less than 150, MPH variance has to be less than 3 MPH & engine load variance has to be less than .13.......so you'd have to be driving in either 4th or 5th gear w\ a steady APP application (like driving in town in speed limit between 30-45 MPH most likely) for this test to run. So if the tuning is good enough & engine is running at Lambda 1.0 (most all PCM-calc'd free O2 should be consumed, except for the small amount that the PCM interpolated to send into the cats to aid them in treating the HC, CO & NOx emitted in exhaust.....thus the front O2 sensors should've responded very fast w\ a large amplitude due to the very small amount of O2 in exhaust compared to the amount of free O2 in the outside reference air that is inside both front NB O2 sensor's reference air chamber--the same outside reference air that the MAF is measuring--causing the NB O2 sensor to generate a voltage output signal close to .8v-.9v or 800mv-900mv) the front NB O2 sensors should easily pass this test. The test MIL failure thus these P0133\P0153 DTC's are due to both front NB O2 sensors failing to create an amplitude voltage output response signal > .5v or 500mv for 2 consecutive drive cycles when PCM ran this response check test on them (test is run on both front O2 sensors once per drive cycle......test duration is 6 secs). The Mode 6 Self Check data will show the difference between the current amplitude output results based off the test vs the low amplitude threshold of .5v\500mv thus is a good indicator of just how severe the O2 leak is (why it is recorded......this data is intended to assist a tech w\ TS'ing).

This info eliminates engine idle, eliminates the front NB O2 sensors themselves as the culprit (PCM has already ran continuous checks on both front O2 sensors for proper switching coming out of OL into CL, heater checks for proper O2 sensor operation & hanging high\low voltage output signal checks in excess of 30 secs.....would've had O2 heater codes or O2 sensor lack of switching codes......you reported none of these.....during initial engine startup thru to hot idle), eliminates the current tune--in particular the O2 sensor TD map settings in the tune. This also pretty much eliminates any DFCO event causing excessive front sensor element cooldown since this testing is done when engine is under an active load so the PCM will not be in a DFCO state.

The issue that is causing both front NB O2 sensors to fail this test is due to excess free O2 in exhaust that is above what the PCM calc'd\interpolated to be present based on PCM Lambda 1.0 A\F calcs that is preventing these sensors from properly responding to the extra fueling (rich) the PCM is using to test them while engine is under a load. The info you posted in post #46 indicates to me that this is occurring intermittently (you drove 400+ mi since hard KAM reset before MIL on, thus I'll assume that you have\had at least 10-20+ drive cycles recorded as well). This is why I suggested to use your SCT X4 tuner & pull IM Readiness checks periodically to look for these 2 codes in their pending state during this period (would have indicated the intermittent nature.....showed them pending meaning they failed on a drive cycle but passed on the next drive cycle(s) before failing again....rinse, repeat). If PCM passed them for at least 10 consecutive drive cycles since the 1st failed test, PCM will clear the DTC from permanent memory thus the PCM will be starting over, so it is conceivable to go for a long period of time......the PCM won't run any catalyst monitor until the front\rear NB O2 sensors monitor complete (needs to know these are good 1st). But most likely PCM never saw 10 consecutive passes (would have completed\passed the O2 sensor monitors thus you wouldn't be getting P0133\P0153 DTC's).

Based on this data, it appears that the issue most likely isn't being caused by a header flange leak (if so, a MIL should have appeared MUCH quicker & during cold start\idle) but since you did R&R these, you should check\test them for sealing verification.......this is where a smoke leak detector is worth its weight in gold. But I'll assume that the only thing you touched was the headers\midpipe swapout.......nothing else on the induction side, correct?

If this is so, then I would suggest that you check your EVAP system for integrity after verifying exhaust is sealed good as this system is the #1 area for excess O2 entry if the CPV is bad or a leak is in line between EVAP canister & engine or FTP is off (PCM is constantly running EVAP purge cycles & during EVAP purge cycle the PCM is looking at STFT's & FTP to determine if\when EVAP canister is empty of fuel fumes thus PCM can run the front O2 sensor response tests at the same time it is also carrying out a EVAP purge cycle).

TBH, I would get everything smoke leak tested (intake side, exhaust side--headers to midpipe only & entire EVAP system) & repair any leaks that show up since your ride is 14+ yrs old ('09 GT, right) to ensure all is covered & not assume. Be sure to have engine cold when performing smoke leak tests..........also IMHO you should have this done prior taking car in for retune.

If the EVAP CPV is still original part (meaning it is as old as the car is), this is a good 1st thing to check for leaking (bad seat) when it is closed. But the leak can be elsewhere thus why I suggest having your ride smoke leak tested. Wherever it is, it is a small leak (this is where looking at the running STFT+LTFT data can give some insight......a fairly high +% LTFT correction is a sign of PCM correcting for a lean condition), otherwise you'd be also getting P0171\P0174 DTC's as well. These CPV's will run you a C-note new either OEM or aftermarket so I'd test\verify it's bad before buying.......I also prefer to replace w\ OEM Ford part instead of aftermarket (OEM part provides better EVAP flow control during purge than aftermarket......I tested this myself) but it's your money to spend in the end.

Hope this helps.
 
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Pentalab

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I use them w/the red and they work great. No major noticeable NVH over stock. Lowered my engine 3/4" allowing me to retain my strut bar for a DOB blower install. One of the better upgrades in my opinion. Can be a bit tricky installing them. (i.e. Be careful during installation; you have to hold the bottom half (or tape it) else you risk dropping it into the frame. Also, depending on how far you lower the engine you may need to use one of the shorter bolts; I did.
On the JBA LT install sheet, they highly recommended installing steeda eng mounts at the same time. The oem eng mounts are made for minimal nvh. I did notice very slight nvh, but only at exactly 650 rpm. Later, VMP increased the idle a bit, so that went away. With the stiffer eng mounts, the eng doesn't flop up + down.... side to side any more.

By lowering the eng anywhere from 1/4" to as much as 3/4", the CG is lowered a bit. The handling is improved a bit.

IF installing new eng mounts, the oem heat shields are re-used. The ceramic coated JBA LT's reduced the eng bay heat by a good 40 F. The mating JBA hi-flow cats reside under both front seats. Oem cats reside at base of eng bay. The heat redux was a combo of the ceramic LT's...and new cats being way further back.

Before the install, the black chromolly steeda front STB over the small M90 blower, ran hot to the touch....now it doesn't.
 

Tony Conti

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I wanted to give an update on the situation because I feel like it owe it to you guy's for all of the input and help I've been given (I really like and appreciate this forum.)

I've had no time over the past three months because I got layed off, picked up a job and ended up fucking hating it and just now as of last week found a good job that gives me way more free time (and pays more lol.) I'm just going to drop it off with my tuner so he can dial it in. The exhaust I previously had was really rigged together... the cats were too far back and never got up to temp, there was over 4 feet of o2 extensions and I was running o2 foolers on the rear o2's just to scrape by emissions on a good day.... back when I did that I didn't have a ton of money and didn't do it the right way. If I didn't have to worry about emissions none of this would've been an issue but it is an issue unfortunately. I let him know about the codes and everything that was changed.
 

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