Addressing the "Coyote Swap It!!" Declarations

[Badd GT]

Sure you didn’t get a Chinese stamping?

 

[RED09GT]

I've noticed a lot of "Made in China" stickers showing up on Ford Racing parts lately...
My replacement suspension parts for my SVT focus is a mix with some boxes from Warren, Michigan and the shocks with "China" stamped on them.

 

[Midlife Crises]

For those that aren't aware of what Midlife Crises is referring to concerning the cam followers here is a picture of the new Ford redesign beside the original....the new design is the bottom one in this picture:
View attachment 72050
Also

Sometimes trying to help is like .

 

[1950StangJump$]

Well, I won't be telling Brenspeed to use a different valve spring - they have been doing this engine too long.

And, since Brenspeed states the updated followers, more robust oil pump, and non-synthetic 10w40 oil mitigate the VVT functionality concern, I'm leaning towards keeping the limiters.

 

[1950StangJump$]

So .... if I go locks, where do you recommend I lock them?

When I asked Lito, he said 107 ICL is a good compromise location. Thoughts?

 

[RED09GT]

That is in the neighborhood for sure.
Bruce H had a set of cams with the same lobes as Comp's 127500 and they were ground on a 108 degree ICL. It made 430- some RWHP on a similar Big Bore motor, stage 2 Ford Racing heads and a Ford Racing intake.

I would have suggested 108 just because it can be done easily with the TFS 2V crank sprockets.

 

[1950StangJump$]

I must admit, this cam thing has gotten me uncharacteristically undecided and second guessing myself.

It will be a B326 with a DOB Gen3 TVS kit. I want to be at 700+ RWHP on 93 and approaching 800 on E85. Not interested in going over 800RWHP, as I want to stick with the returnless fuel system for now. This will be a fun street car that I drive on backroads, around town on a Saturday night, and to an occasional car show. No racing, so "peak" HP is not worth giving up driveability.

The influx of data:

• Everyone, including those on this thread, DOB and Lito, say lock the cams . . . except the people actually making the motor (Brenspeed). They say they have not seen limiters or the VVT fail under their current setup. But, they will lock it if thats what I want.
• Brenspeed recommends the 127450 cam (with comp cam limiters) for a nice power/drivability compromise.
• But, Brenspeed has not worked with their engine and this particular blower setup. Lito and DOB both say that, because the Gen3 will have so much torque, its worth the small loss down low to lock them out and ensure safety/durability.
• But Lito says the 127450 is not ideal and recommends a custom grind. I'm not interested in getting into custom grinds. If not custom, he says go to the 127350.
• DOB hates the 127350 and has had nothing but disappointment with it when used -- and especially if locked out.
• Comp cam recommended the 127350 with a blown setup, versus the 450. Says the 350s don't even need limiters.
• DOB says either stick with the stock cam or go big with the 127550.
• Many people, including Lito, say the 550 causes drivability compromises.

I'm about to say "F it!" and just tell Brenspeed to stick with what they say works (450 and limiters).

 

[Badd GT]

I must admit, this cam thing has gotten me uncharacteristically undecided and second guessing myself.

It will be a B326 with a DOB Gen3 TVS kit. I want to be at 700+ RWHP on 93 and approaching 800 on E85. Not interested in going over 800RWHP, as I want to stick with the returnless fuel system for now. This will be a fun street car that I drive on backroads, around town on a Saturday night, and to an occasional car show. No racing, so "peak" HP is not worth giving up driveability.

The influx of data:

• Everyone, including those on this thread, DOB and Lito, say lock the cams . . . except the people actually making the motor (Brenspeed). They say they have not seen limiters or the VVT fail under their current setup. But, they will lock it if thats what I want.
• Brenspeed recommends the 127450 cam (with comp cam limiters) for a nice power/drivability compromise.
• But, Brenspeed has not worked with their engine and this particular blower setup. Lito and DOB both say that, because the Gen3 will have so much torque, its worth the small loss down low to lock them out and ensure safety/durability.
• But Lito says the 127450 is not ideal and recommends a custom grind. I'm not interested in getting into custom grinds. If not custom, he says go to the 127350.
• DOB hates the 127350 and has had nothing but disappointment with it when used -- and especially if locked out.
• Comp cam recommended the 127350 with a blown setup, versus the 450. Says the 350s don't even need limiters.
• DOB says either stick with the stock cam or go big with the 127550.
• Many people, including Lito, say the 550 causes drivability compromises.

I'm about to say "F it!" and just tell Brenspeed to stick with what they say works (450 and limiters).

Listen to Lito and Comp Cams, 127350 with full use of VCT (someone else said that on here)

 

[Midlife Crises]

The 127350 uses the lighter pressure comp cams springs and works with full VVT range. I am using it in a built but stock bore and stroke 4.6 with stock heads. The cam is very mild with a smooth, busy idle and no lope. My engine starts to plateau about 6,000. I do not believe the 127350 cams would be ideal for a larger motor with good flowing heads. Look at the LSA.

 

[1950StangJump$]

With all the contradictory information, I called and talked to Brenspeed again - this time the director of the service department. Got some more history.

He said they used to lock down the cams years ago because of issues, especially with the bigger 127550s. But, since the revision to the followers, they have not had to. He said that Ford did, indeed, change the design based on feedback even though the 4.6 was out of production. And, he reiterated that they were design changes based on lessons learned from the Coyote.

It was unclear to me if the oil pump upgrade and thicker oil were always something they did or if it was part of the solution in recent years.

He said they install about 30 of these engines a year, and they normally do a 2.3 TVS and push 18lbs of boost for 720RWHP on 93. They have done nothing but the limiters (no lockouts) now for years, and they have had no problems.

He said that, if I use the 127450, its good for about 20HP over the 127350. He also says that using the limiters (instead of lockouts) will also help with power and driveability.

I still have another week to decide, LOL.

 

[Juice]

IMO it is crazy to lock cams and do away with VCT. For what? Some top end power at the cost of bottom end torque, drivability, and fuel milage.Race car maybe, not on a street car.
One of my build criteria was to retain the TViCT, that at the time meant control pack of factory pcm strategy.
I never go bacwards with technology.

 

[RED09GT]

I never go bacwards with technology.

I wanted to keep my VCT but after reccomendations from Bullett cams, modular head shop, and Lito, I decided to listen.
You have a system designed for 300-320hp motors, then you add cams with ramp rates that OEM manufacturers would never touch, springs with almost double the spring rate as OEM, 15 lbs of boost fighting that heavy single exhaust valve from opening and you can see why things fail. Maybe it isn't as much of a step back in technology as much as it is realizing you are outside of the design parameters of the system.

 

[gus]

Would VCT issues be experienced with stock cams, springs, VCT etc and 15-18 Lbs of boost? I'm forging my motor, but want to keep as many stock components as possible.

 

[GlassTop09]

He said they used to lock down the cams years ago because of issues, especially with the bigger 127550s. But, since the revision to the followers, they have not had to. He said that Ford did, indeed, change the design based on feedback even though the 4.6 was out of production. And, he reiterated that they were design changes based on lessons learned from the Coyote.

That's good to know.....…...
Thanks for posting!