Advice on Rotating Assembly Components

[Dubstep Shep]

I'd love to build my own shortblock too and when it comes down to it, it seems like the Rods with ARP bolts are where the engine gets a bump in "Capability" terms. It seems like any engine that is rated for 1000hp(well 800ish wheels) seems to have Manley H beams with ARP 2000 bolts and forged crank. When you see engines go above that mark I've noticed Oliver or Manley billet I's being used. Can't really tell if there is a difference in pistons or not.

I'd be looking to spend the extra 700 on billet I beams when building the engine if you want to build it right for max power.

Yea rods seem like the defining point past about 600hp. I'm thinking Oliver I beams or the Manley pro series. I'm thinking Oliver though

I used the arp online catalog, then went to ebay and searched the part numbers. Titan showed up with the best prices. Hope it helps

Yea, some of the stuff ARP showed on the online catalogue Mod Max said wouldn't work. I'll have to call ARP and get someone on the phone to confirm.

 

[crownaviation]

My machinist has a good working relationship with many of the piston companies etc. He can likely price match most the prices you find he said and this month is likely the best time of year to do work as race season just ended. He has a few big builds coming up soon but could get you in now if interested. Price will depend on what all you want done. They are not cheap but I am happy I went with them.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

My machinist has a good working relationship with many of the piston companies etc. He can likely price match most the prices you find he said and this month is likely the best time of year to do work as race season just ended. He has a few big builds coming up soon but could get you in now if interested. Price will depend on what all you want done. They are not cheap but I am happy I went with them.

Sweeeet. I'm waiting to hear back from diamond on their piston recommendations, but I might be ready to start ordering parts as early as Friday. At the latest I'll be ready early next week.

If you want to text me your machinists contact info I'll shoot him a call or email before Friday and ask him about his recommendations.

 

[crownaviation]

Yea... I was joking around. I've tried to be helpful visa vi past posts on this thread. Maybe I haven't been helpful, I don't know. There was certainly no reason to get personal. My post was used to diffuse the post prior to mine, not to exacerbate the ensuing internet-rage.

I at least tried to offer my $.02 on the actual topic.

As for you assuming what I have and haven't done, I'd doubt that you've touched half of the shit I have. I'm a marine engineer, and sail with 60,000hp diesel plants bigger than you can imagine. But go ahead, make assumptions...

I see the other post (not yours) was edited. It did not read that way and if was not meant the way it sounded then my bad and I certainly apologize. Trolls find their way in and derail threads with bs when they have no idea what they are talking about

I am not here to start a pissin match either.. I definitely do not have time for that crap.

 

[psfracer]

I think you are on the right track to "over build" the bottom end to be able to hold up to a power level much higher then you are planning. I did it. My block/bottom end is good for 1500hp, all though I am only at 1100 on the bottle. But its reliable. Its good to have a foundation you can count on, as when you loose a bottom end or block, it often takes a lot of other things with it (cylinder heads, valve train, etc), and becomes even more expensive as the collateral damage adds up.

Just keep in mind, even if you build for 2,000 hp, a crappy tune will get you every time.

A note on the rods. Research what kind of rod bolt they come with (whatever your selection ends up being), and get the best rod bolt you can. My H-beams originally came with ARP 2000 rod bolts, but I upgraded to L19 rod bolts. Just one example.

 

[ejschmidt]

I'm onboard with keeping it civil! Like I said, until that post, I was honestly trying to at least keep the conversation going and be somewhat productive. I tried to offer ideas. That one about the antennae was just to make things less uncomfortable.

I understand where you're coming from with regards to trolls being trolls.

At some point I'll try and share some of my work. It's some really cool stuff, with piston strokes over two meters long and cylinder bore just over a meter. I've got some pictures of the entire engineering department in one cylinder.

I was speaking with a guy on my ship who's into lobster boat racing (hear me out) which require pretty much the best of the best because they need to have parts that can carry full load at all time. The way he explained it to me is if the engine were in a car it'd be carrying a trailer uphill at all times (hydro drag)

Anyhow, he's gone through a few motors and he swears by CP rods. Just a thought. I don't know what kind of reputation they have in mustang motors, but they're the king of the hill for these high stress lobster boat motors.

 

[RocketcarX]

I appreciate the kind words hehehe. I really appreciate you swinging by the shop as well.

The plan was to assemble the engine myself, just because it seems like a pretty straightforward operation, definitely no more complicated the a rear end, just longer. I was mulling the idea over of getting the engine blueprinted though, and doesn't that usually entail that whoever does the blueprint also does assembly?

Yes, putting together a 3v OHC engine is exactly like building a rear end.

^^^Really people? Next time I think you guys are asking something stupid lets be sure to give you shit. READ the post.. Never said he wanted to run 1000hp. The OP is ACTUALLY building a motor..not just writing a check so fuckoff. Have you built one of these or are you just being idiots? I suppose I answered my own question. Take your forever slow v6 go somewhere else..

Op Wanted to build a solid motor that had potential down the road. Also guy is more intelligent than all of you put together (have met him). If we were all born with your ultimate wisdom and experience then would be no need for this forum would there.. Nothing useful to add.. then gtfo this post newbs... I am sure all your engine building experience is needed somewhere else so go find a corner somewhere and you can swap turns shoving those shorty antennas up your asses which I am sure you will enjoy.. fucktards these days..

As for the OP, I took the day off and will swing by the machine shop to see what their schedule is looking like. They have been building crazy power motors for 30 years and do have experience in modulars (did my machining) so that is a major plus. I still say you do the assembly tho.. you will learn a lot and it is not that hard. Plus that will allow you to check all the clearances for yourself to be sure. No matter how good a shop is everyone is capable of making mistakes..

Actually, I've had my hands on everything from one of custom promod motors to racing quads and anything else you can think of. You see, working in a racing machine shop (at one point fastest nitrous car in the midwest) give you a little more insight then your average collage kid who posts about "twin chargers" and needing money to fix his broken car. Who the fck drives a V6? What good is a 1k capable HP motor without the cash-flow for even half the supporting mods? THe only newb here is the kid asking how to build 1000 HP reliable street cars...

 

[RocketcarX]

This is where the disdain for the OP comes from. The kid is a troll, occasionally posting something interesting but for the most part simple spouts theory and argues based on nothing more. Now, here we have more theory, I think we both know he's not actually building anything. This is the same kid who wants to bring it to the auto cross track because corners are where it's at, what go is 1khp in autocross? You don't start at the top, just doesn't work. If he thinks building a OHC motor is just like building a rear end, you're gonna have to build this motor for him. Fck this mental masturbation.

I edited my post, because after posting, thought better of it and decided to let it lay. Thanks for bringing it back

 

[ejschmidt]

Who the fck drives a V6?

I believe the V6 reference was directed towards me. I'm over it.

 

[RocketcarX]

I believe the V6 reference was directed towards me. I'm over it.

I was trying to be "over it" too, lol. Hence my deleting my first post immediately, I guess not fast enough to save me from being quoted.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Yes, putting together a 3v OHC engine is exactly like building a rear end.



Actually, I've had my hands on everything from one of custom promod motors to racing quads and anything else you can think of. You see, working in a racing machine shop (at one point fastest nitrous car in the midwest) give you a little more insight then your average collage kid who posts about "twin chargers" and needing money to fix his broken car. Who the fck drives a V6? What good is a 1k capable HP motor without the cash-flow for even half the supporting mods? THe only newb here is the kid asking how to build 1000 HP reliable street cars...

I'm about done with you, so realize this post is likely the last polite one you'll see from me directed your way.

First of all, you don't know me, at all. Don't act like you do.
Secondly, I'm not here to start an argument, and I don't think that an Internet forum is the place for that.

Thirdly, if you want to throw around insults like a child, I can't stop you, but it doesn't change how pathetic your behavior is.

This is where the disdain for the OP comes from. The kid is a troll, occasionally posting something interesting but for the most part simple spouts theory and argues based on nothing more. Now, here we have more theory, I think we both know he's not actually building anything. This is the same kid who wants to bring it to the auto cross track because corners are where it's at, what
go is 1khp in autocross? You don't start at the top, just doesn't work. If he thinks building a OHC motor is just like building a rear end, you're gonna have to build this motor for him. Fck this mental masturbation.

I edited my post, because after posting, thought better of it and decided to let it lay. Thanks for bringing it back

Again, you don't know me. At all apparently lol. I'm going to make a mockery of this post from you when I do finish my project, and run it in your face until a mod tells me to stop. I hope you're ready for that, because I love taking people like you down a level. Rant over.

I've tried being polite, respectful, and open with you, but clearly you have issues that span much further my my goodwill can bridge. I suggest you take your attitude to a different thread, because you are no longer welcome in mine.

 

[RocketcarX]

I'm about done with you, so realize this post is likely the last polite one you'll see from me directed your way.

First of all, you don't know me, at all. Don't act like you do.
Secondly, I'm not here to start an argument, and I don't think that an Internet forum is the place for that.

Thirdly, if you want to throw around insults like a child, I can't stop you, but it doesn't change how pathetic your behavior is.



Again, you don't know me. At all apparently lol. I'm going to make a mockery of this post from you when I do finish my project, and run it in your face until a mod tells me to stop. I hope you're ready for that, because I love taking people like you down a level. Rant over.

I've tried being polite, respectful, and open with you, but clearly you have issues that span much further my my goodwill can bridge. I suggest you take your attitude to a different thread, because you are no longer welcome in mine.

I'm calmer then you are.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

I'm calmer then you are.

I don't have time do glorify that with the response it deserves.

I have an interview with a Fortune 200 company all day tomorrow so I need to get some sleep. If I come back tomorrow night and you've continued to debase yourself, insult me and my friends, and attempt to derail a perfectly good thread, then other actions will have to be taken. I'm hoping you're willing to be mature here and respect the forum.

 

[ejschmidt]

I'm calmer then you are.

Than.

Anyhow, back to the point of this thread - rods are still an interesting subject. Went back to my lobster boat friend and inquired a little more with regards to rods.

According to him (I have no personal experience on the matter) CP rods are "top notch" and do well with constant stress 100% of the time. He said he's had issues with manufacturing inconsistencies with Manley rods. Apparently a brand new set of rods, even out of the box, can vary vastly from one rod to another, so it would behoove yourself to weigh and measure each rod (as I assume you would either way, given that you're going to be doing this in conjunction with a machine shop.)

 

[RocketcarX]

I don't have time do glorify that with the response it deserves.

I have an interview with a Fortune 200 company all day tomorrow so I need to get some sleep. If I come back tomorrow night and you've continued to debase yourself, insult me and my friends, and attempt to derail a perfectly good thread, then other actions will have to be taken. I'm hoping you're willing to be mature here and respect the forum.

I didn't insult anyone genius, your "friend" set this off, if you remember, I thought better of it and deleted my original post.Using polite words to make threats and call names doesn't make it any different . I only called you a "kid" and a "collage student", lol. "Actions"? Do it, I'll be here when you get back.

Than.

Anyhow, back to the point of this thread - rods are still an interesting subject. Went back to my lobster boat friend and inquired a little more with regards to rods.

According to him (I have no personal experience on the matter) CP rods are "top notch" and do well with constant stress 100% of the time. He said he's had issues with manufacturing inconsistencies with Manley rods. Apparently a brand new set of rods, even out of the box, can vary vastly from one rod to another, so it would behoove yourself to weigh and measure each rod (as I assume you would either way, given that you're going to be doing this in conjunction with a machine shop.)

Good eye, lol.

 

[BadPiggy]

but I might be ready to start ordering parts as early as Friday. At the latest I'll be ready early next week.

All the effort you're putting in to get the best prices...one would think you'd slow your ass down, wait 2 weeks and see what these vendors are doing on Black Friday.

Summit does 20% off most shit that entire weekend
Lethal Performance has their Black Friday, THEN not long after...12 Days Of Christmas
All these guys are putting something together for Black Friday

All of these vendors are busting ass right now to get the best pricing from their distributors...for us.
I'd wait 2 weeks.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Had a couple extra minutes before the bus leaves this morning. Figured I'd at least update.

Than.

Anyhow, back to the point of this thread - rods are still an interesting subject. Went back to my lobster boat friend and inquired a little more with regards to rods.

According to him (I have no personal experience on the matter) CP rods are "top notch" and do well with constant stress 100% of the time. He said he's had issues with manufacturing inconsistencies with Manley rods. Apparently a brand new set of rods, even out of the box, can vary vastly from one rod to another, so it would behoove yourself to weigh and measure each rod (as I assume you would either way, given that you're going to be doing this in conjunction with a machine shop.)

Interesting... Are the rods in these boats at all comparable to those in our cars in size, weight, and design?

I didn't insult anyone genius, your "friend" set this off, if you remember, I thought better of it and deleted my original post.Using polite words to make threats and call names doesn't make it any different . I only called you a "kid" and a "collage student", lol. "Actions"? Do it, I'll be here when you get back.

It is clear to me your hubris is far too large for us to see eye to eye. Fortunately, this forum has an ignore feature, and I'll be placing you on my list shortly after this. Likely I'll take you off when my engine is complete to rub it in your face, and then put your right back on it. People like you are not worth the time to communicate with on a a normal basis. Good luck.

All the effort you're putting in to get the best prices...one would think you'd slow your ass down, wait 2 weeks and see what these vendors are doing on Black Friday.

Summit does 20% off most shit that entire weekend
Lethal Performance has their Black Friday, THEN not long after...12 Days Of Christmas
All these guys are putting something together for Black Friday

All of these vendors are busting ass right now to get the best pricing from their distributors...for us.
I'd wait 2 weeks.

Just because I'll be ready to start ordering parts doesn't mean I'm actually going to.

As you said, there will likely be deals, and I want to make sure I'm 100% confident of what I want to order before Black Friday gets here.

Likely when I start getting quotes from forum vendors I'll ask them if they plan on putting a Black Friday discount on any of the parts I'm looking at. If they can tell me then all the better. If not, then the waiting game ensues.

 

[crownaviation]

All the effort you're putting in to get the best prices...one would think you'd slow your ass down, wait 2 weeks and see what these vendors are doing on Black Friday.

^^Yes, wait for the sales. This is your first modular build so it will take more time than you think (always does).

If you want something quick and easy then by all means call Eric at JPC or Brenspeed but that is not as rewarding and if you have them build one with everything you want the wait will be as long if not longer

I would realistically plan at least 2 months build time (even if you had the block at a shop now).. . Unless you are 05Stroker.. then two weeks lol

If you really wanted to, we can use the engine dyno to break it in but I will have to cut up a set of headers to do it, and will need a PCM

 

[RED09GT]

Just a couple thoughts.
Sorry if this has been covered but I couldn't bear to read through the entire thread.
Something that I didn't see covered in the early parts of the thread is that the best rods and pistons for withstanding huge cylinder pressures and surviving detonation on the edge are not the best for providing a long service life of thousands of heat cycles. In other words, if you plan on driving the car 20,000 miles before you step your game up, it may not be wise to use a set of billet rods at this time and your pistons will probably also be due for replacement by the time that you are ready as well, especially if there is wear on the cylinder walls and you need to overbore.

The other thing is that this is an expensive hobby but things can be bought and sold as needed for your current power levels. Why not build a simple shortblock that will be more than enough for now and then when the car becomes a true weekend toy that is not relied on for basic transportation, put in the high dollar components that are fresh and new so there will be less chance at failure. A set of good H-beams have a long service life and sell in the classifieds for 50-70% of their cost in the classifieds all the time.

The mod motor aftermarket is actually picking up a bit of steam so in a couple years when you are in a better position to go big, there may be much better choices out there-wouldn't it suck to have a bunch of money tied into components for a stock block and an aluminum big bore block is available?

I know I'm rambling on so I'll sum it up with what I think you should do right now:

-Skip the coatings-they'll be worn off before you are ready to step your game up. You can have the parts coated when you pull them out to refresh the motor.

-Moly rings instead of Stainless as stainless are harder on your cylinder walls, switch to stainless when the car is a weekend toy

-Manley H-beams with ARP2000 bolts for now. They are easy to re-sell when you are ready to go big and since they fit the 5.0 as well, the market for them will stay strong.

-Kellogg crank is a good idea, plenty strong and no problems with service life.


You seem like the type that likes wrenching so you'll probably find yourself constantly wanting to tear into things, try this new part, etc...It really is a bit of a sick addiction so what I am saying is that you may think the best of the best is what you need now but the truth is that those parts will still be available in the future and will be the more appropriate parts at that time.

Good luck with the build and don't do anything in haste just to prove the haters wrong, many people have gone astray to try and prove a point on the internet-at the end of the day, it is your car and you are the one that will enjoy it-don't do it for internet fame.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

^^Yes, wait for the sales. This is your first modular build so it will take more time than you think (always does).

If you want something quick and easy then by all means call Eric at JPC or Brenspeed but that is not as rewarding and if you have them build one with everything you want the wait will be as long if not longer

I would realistically plan at least 2 months build time (even if you had the block at a shop now).. . Unless you are 05Stroker.. then two weeks lol

If you really wanted to, we can use the engine dyno to break it in but I will have to cut up a set of headers to do it, and will need a PCM

Yea, I'm borrowing my moms extra car right now, so it's not a huge inconvenience. Two months would be perfectly fine with me lol.

That might be a good idea on the engine dyno, because I'll need to break in a new clutch as well, and if I'm not mistake. It's impossible to do both at once... I pulled my PCM out of my car already, so I can bring that. I also have my current JBA shorty headers but idk if those will work.

Just a couple thoughts.
Sorry if this has been covered but I couldn't bear to read through the entire thread.
Something that I didn't see covered in the early parts of the thread is that the best rods and pistons for withstanding huge cylinder pressures and surviving detonation on the edge are not the best for providing a long service life of thousands of heat cycles. In other words, if you plan on driving the car 20,000 miles before you step your game up, it may not be wise to use a set of billet rods at this time and your pistons will probably also be due for replacement by the time that you are ready as well, especially if there is wear on the cylinder walls and you need to overbore.

The other thing is that this is an expensive hobby but things can be bought and sold as needed for your current power levels. Why not build a simple shortblock that will be more than enough for now and then when the car becomes a true weekend toy that is not relied on for basic transportation, put in the high dollar components that are fresh and new so there will be less chance at failure. A set of good H-beams have a long service life and sell in the classifieds for 50-70% of their cost in the classifieds all the time.

The mod motor aftermarket is actually picking up a bit of steam so in a couple years when you are in a better position to go big, there may be much better choices out there-wouldn't it suck to have a bunch of money tied into components for a stock block and an aluminum big bore block is available?

I know I'm rambling on so I'll sum it up with what I think you should do right now:

-Skip the coatings-they'll be worn off before you are ready to step your game up. You can have the parts coated when you pull them out to refresh the motor.

-Moly rings instead of Stainless as stainless are harder on your cylinder walls, switch to stainless when the car is a weekend toy

-Manley H-beams with ARP2000 bolts for now. They are easy to re-sell when you are ready to go big and since they fit the 5.0 as well, the market for them will stay strong.

-Kellogg crank is a good idea, plenty strong and no problems with service life.


You seem like the type that likes wrenching so you'll probably find yourself constantly wanting to tear into things, try this new part, etc...It really is a bit of a sick addiction so what I am saying is that you may think the best of the best is what you need now but the truth is that those parts will still be available in the future and will be the more appropriate parts at that time.

Good luck with the build and don't do anything in haste just to prove the haters wrong, many people have gone astray to try and prove a point on the internet-at the end of the day, it is your car and you are the one that will enjoy it-don't do it for internet fame.

Good advice, and good point about wear and tear being higher on high performance parts. I hadn't considered that. Definitely something I'll consider. Thanks!