From Koni to bilstein. I've seen the light. Thanks vorshlag!

[csamsh]

But if you are going to go coilovers why give up adjustability. Pay more, get more. Going from Konis to Bilsteins is a sideways move.

It's all down to what you value. You can have durability and ride quality or adjustability for one price, or all three for another (higher) price. I can absolutely see how some would value adjustability more than the other two. I'm just not those people. I'd rather have durability.

So says Barbaro. So shall it be written. So shall it be done.

Ok +1 for that. That was pretty good.

 

[jmauld]

Meanwhile, those Bilstein Coilovers are cool, But if you are going to go coilovers why give up adjustability. Pay more, get more. Going from Konis to Bilsteins is a sideways move. So says Barbaro. So shall it be written. So shall it be done.

Konis: adjustable
Bilsteins: Consistency and quality.

Take your pick, there is value in each side. But I wouldn't call them a sideways move.

 

[white86hatch]

Konis: adjustable
Bilsteins: Consistency and quality.

Take your pick, there is value in each side. But I wouldn't call them a sideways move.

Basically the same conclusion that I came to when I was deciding what to replace my Koni's with. While my car is a daily the consistency and quality was more important than adjustability.

 

[kcbrown]

Konis: adjustable
Bilsteins: Consistency and quality.

What kind of consistency, specifically?

The adjustability of the Konis means that you can match their damping characteristics to each other simply by getting them dynoed. You can't do that with the Bilsteins, but that might not matter (their QC might be so good that they're already well matched when you get them).

Anyone stick the S197 Bilsteins on the dyno? If so, where's the dyno plots?

 

[claudermilk]

As a data point, I'm running the Konis with Steeda Sport springs. That's 1" front and 1.5" rear lower at 200# front and 185# rear linear rate. After a year the shocks are still fine--it's been that long? Well, sale time again, so must be. The car has run many, many miles DD, several autocrosses on street tires, and now one track day on the in-between 200 treadwear rules specials (RE-11A).

I want to move up to JRi, AST, or MCS coilovers eventually. Budget is the issue.

 

[jmauld]

Consistency in terms of initial damping characteristics. Bilstein is very well known for this.

Additionally, the monotubes are better at keeping the fluid cool so they are more consistent during a track session.

 

[jmauld]

The adjustability of the Konis means that you can match their damping characteristics to each other simply by getting them dynoed. You can't do that with the Bilsteins,

You CAN do that with the bilsteins. There are hundreds of shops that can revalve a bilstein exactly the way that you want them and can guarantee their consistency.

There are about three shops that can revalve a KONI. And their revalve costs are double the cost of revalving a Bilstein. And unless you put the KONIs on a dyno, you are just guessing on whether or not each side is adjusted the same as the other side.

 

[Norm Peterson]

You CAN do that with the bilsteins. There are hundreds of shops that can revalve a bilstein exactly the way that you want them and can guarantee their consistency.

There are about three shops that can revalve a KONI. And their revalve costs are double the cost of revalving a Bilstein. And unless you put the KONIs on a dyno, you are just guessing on whether or not each side is adjusted the same as the other side.

Dimensional tolerances being what they are, I think you'd still want to have dyno results for the Bils to see how closely they were matched, side to side. Otherwise it's still somebody's judgment that tolerances on all the internal bits stacked up close enough to identical on things like orifice sizes and shim stiffnesses.

At least on the first set of shocks you'd have done by any given entity.


Norm

 

[jmauld]

Dimensional tolerances being what they are, I think you'd still want to have dyno results for the Bils to see how closely they were matched, side to side. Otherwise it's still somebody's judgment that tolerances on all the internal bits stacked up close enough to identical on things like orifice sizes and shim stiffnesses.

At least on the first set of shocks you'd have done by any given entity.


Norm

I don't disagree with that. I'd also argue that every time you touched the adjustment knob on a KONI that you should you have the adjustment verified, via a shock dyno.

 

[kcbrown]

You CAN do that with the bilsteins. There are hundreds of shops that can revalve a bilstein exactly the way that you want them and can guarantee their consistency.

True, and that can be a substantial advantage over merely being able to adjust what you have, depending on what you want to do.

There are about three shops that can revalve a KONI. And their revalve costs are double the cost of revalving a Bilstein.

I'd heard about that. That's unfortunate. You'd think Koni would make their shocks readily revalvable if only to increase their market share. I suppose they might have decided that the additional warranty claims would make that a bad move financially, but since everyone knows that Konis disintegrate at the first bump you hit, you'd think it wouldn't make any difference.

And unless you put the KONIs on a dyno, you are just guessing on whether or not each side is adjusted the same as the other side.

Of course. But then, putting the Konis on the dyno is exactly what I was talking about. Why anyone who is even semi-serious about their suspension would fail to put their dampers, whatever they may be, on the dyno, is quite beyond me.

 

[kcbrown]

I don't disagree with that. I'd also argue that every time you touched the adjustment knob on a KONI that you should you have the adjustment verified, via a shock dyno.

A proper dyno run on the Konis involves multiple runs with changes of the the adjustment in something like 1/4 turn increments. Once you have that, you're essentially set.

 

[white86hatch]

Of course. But then, putting the Konis on the dyno is exactly what I was talking about. Why anyone who is even semi-serious about their suspension would fail to put their dampers, whatever they may be, on the dyno, is quite beyond me.

I'd guess most people who spend the entry level money for Koni's aren't overly concerned with the dyno plots. For me and I'm sure many others out there it's just a temporary combo to get by with until coilovers are a feasible option. At which point I'd definitely want them dyno'd.

 

[jmauld]

I'd guess most people who spend the entry level money for Koni's aren't overly concerned with the dyno plots.

But most people who buy KONIs are concerned with having the "adjustability", even though without a dyno, you might as well let a two year old make your adjustment for you. If you don't keep the two sides closely matched you are likely introducing more issues then you're going to solve.

Granted, any random adjustment on a KONI will be better then the stock valving, so there's that. At least until they leak out their special sauce.

 

[kcbrown]

I'd guess most people who spend the entry level money for Koni's aren't overly concerned with the dyno plots. For me and I'm sure many others out there it's just a temporary combo to get by with until coilovers are a feasible option. At which point I'd definitely want them dyno'd.

They might not be overly concerned with the dyno plots, but if they're serious about their suspension, then they certainly should be, and the same holds true if they got Bilsteins instead. Otherwise, the dampers are simply an unknown quantity.

I agree, you can't know if your adjustments are going to be balanced side to side unless you use dyno plots, but I'd argue that such is true of any adjustable damper. Whether the dyno plot is used as a quality control measure to ensure a left:right match at a given setting or is used to compensate for side-to-side differences, you need a dyno plot no matter what if you want to ensure balanced damping.

 

[white86hatch]

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have the shocks dyno plotted. Just saying that most likely they don't for the reason I stated.

 

[jmauld]

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't have the shocks dyno plotted. Just saying that most likely they don't for the reason I stated.

The point that we are trying to make, is that if it's not important to you, then "adjustability" isn't really important either. You'd be better off paying for better quality shocks.

 

[kcbrown]

The point that we are trying to make, is that if it's not important to you, then "adjustability" isn't really important either. You'd be better off paying for better quality shocks.

Well, I wouldn't go quite that far.

Whether the balance is exactly right or not, the ability to adjust the shocks means you can significantly alter the handling of the car, and that's probably why a lot of people buy the Konis -- not because they're serious about what their suspension is doing, but because they want to be able to change how the car feels during cornering, over bumps, etc.

Not everyone who buys Konis is serious about the performance of their suspension in the way that most here are. But they still want the ability to change how the car behaves, and that's why they want the adjusters.

It seems to me, actually, that someone who gravitates towards the Bilsteins is much more likely to be serious about his suspension (the advantages of the Bilsteins, such as the benefits that come from their monotube construction, tend to be those things that only someone who is serious will really care about), and so such a person really should be getting dyno plots for his dampers.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The point that we are trying to make, is that if it's not important to you, then "adjustability" isn't really important either.

Strongly disagree.

On a true dual-purpose and potentially daily-driven car, there is definite value in having easy adjustability. There is about a full turn difference between the settings I use out on the track and what I will set when my wife is aboard for more than just a few miles. For just me in daily driving, somewhere around midway between.

At some point, I may end up developing yet another set of adjustments, specifically for wet track time.

Once you have adjustability you simply tweak it to suit the purpose at hand - that's basically what the damper tuning guides tell you to do. You keep going until you either end up with something that suits that purpose or you run out of adjustment, all without having to refer to any plots at all. Sure, it is nice to have at least representative curves available as part of your research before buying, but once they're installed it isn't necessary to know that +1.5 turns equals 57% critical damping when you know you want more (or less) than that anyway.

With respect to the equality of side vs side curves, I wonder how many people would notice an "offset" of, say, 0.1 turn (i.e. the curve at +1.4 turn on the RF being essentially the same as the curve at +1.5 turn on the LF) and be able to correctly identify it. If you can't, how much could it matter?


Norm

 

[SlowJim]

Just wanted to post an update, I have had these on my car about 7 months now. It is my only car and I daily drive it, even through winter in Ohio on snow tires. The Eibach Pro-kit + Bilstein setup is quite livable on a dd and I've had no complaints from passengers on ride quality.

With the front bar set to full stiff and rear in the middle, it was a little understeery at my autox last weekend. Might set the rear to full stiff after my track day in June. Overall very impressed with this setup though. Unfortunately I was only able to get -2.1 (L) and -2.35 (R) camber with my MM plates.

 

[Hiltsy845]

Are the Bilsteins in the Street Pro kit that Vorshlag sells custom ordered, or are the off the shelf Bilstein HD shorter than stock?