Fuck this car.

[TurboPete]

Thats exactly my point , the more compression the motor has the less window of timing and boost you can run . That is why I went with 8.7.1 so I can run more boost . You will always make more power by running more boost then you will by running more timing .

On a 9.7.1 motor on pump gas I would have started at 14* of timing with that much boost , but it goes against what Ive always said. Why take a chance that something goes wrong put c16 and you dont have to worry about detonation.


Pete

 

[V8SRGR8]

Ok, everybody calm down.

I am not an expert engine builder or tuner. It has taken some time for myself and everyone else involved to figure out what happened here. We are still waiting for Mahle to come back with their findings. Livernois has repeatedly stated their position and willingness to come to some arrangement. We will see in time what that arrangement is. If you guys (Livernois) want to post the document you sent to me, that's fine. The only reason I didn't was because I hadn't had a chance to look over it with my tuner. Both he and I have been on vacation over the last week.

I am glad I reopened this thread, because a whole lot of good information has come out of it that may save somebody from experiencing what I did - it's also allowed me to vent my frustrations, which helped a bit. Like I said before, I never wanted this to be a bashing thread, only to find the answers.

 

[TurboPete]

Very well stated , and I apoligize if it seems Im bashing someone , I dont think I did , just wanted to make a few points. Its very unfornate that this happened , I would be very upset as well , the important thing like you mentioned is there is alot of info on this topic that will be helpful to many others in the future.
Its always a good idea to gather all information available when you have a project in mind to know what you can and cannot do .
Who really knows what happened 100% it coul be a combination of alot of things that took place. Just goes to show that S^&% happens.
Im sure you data logged the pull , how much timing was in the program?
A 9.7.1. compression motor for a Centri type set up will work great cause you have the power down low when the engine is beginning to rpm to build boost , you just have to pull the timing out of it up top as its climbing .
Im sure everything will work out , dont give up on your build once its all figured out your going to love it.

Pete

 

[mike@livernois]

I went through and attached the document with pictures that we sent over initially to the customer. Again the purpose here is to post the pictures and offer as much info as possible so that everybody can see a lot of the same things we saw from the tear down. Nothing in the write-up is meant to be stated as fact, just our opinion based on what we have seen before first hand.

If there are any comments or questions or anything just throw them out there and I will do my best to answer.

Thanks
Mike

 

[Thereaper]

This thread is great and the most reading I've done sense Don W's house rebuild thread. I hope somebody comes to a conclusion on what happend.

 

[Ken3030]

I went through and attached the document with pictures that we sent over initially to the customer. Again the purpose here is to post the pictures and offer as much info as possible so that everybody can see a lot of the same things we saw from the tear down. Nothing in the write-up is meant to be stated as fact, just our opinion based on what we have seen before first hand.

If there are any comments or questions or anything just throw them out there and I will do my best to answer.

Thanks
Mike

This brings to mind "a picture is worth a thousand words!!"

 

[V8SRGR8]

Reply from Livernois

Update - got the results of piston testing from Mahle, and Livernois' response:

Got a follow up from the analysis at Mahle. The hardness of the piston showed that it had not had a significant change in hardness or had annealed. The rings however showed significant pressure spiking damage to blow the moly off the face of the ring and damage the ring set and ringland. The rings did have heat damage and were losing tension. Mahle’s assessment overall is damage from pressure spiking and detonation. They said that based on the damage it looks as though the timeframe to cause that damage was very short. Their experience with this kind of damage was similar to damage they have seen in NASCAR engines with fuel pressure issues.

Here is my opinion or thinking on it from what I have seen. Mind you I am not really a tuning pro or electronics pro, I just know the basics for the most part. I think it has to do with the fact that an engine at speed only would take a millisecond dropout in fuel pressure to effect the air/fuel ratio. In a fuel rail however different cylinders are going to react differently depending on their distance from the source of pressure (the pump). As rail pressure suddenly drops the fuel pressure at the head of each injector will be different and then depending on the firing order and when the injectors fire the drop in fuel pressure at the injector itself will be different. As this happens the air/fuel in that cylinder goes leaner and under boost this causes somewhat instantaneous detonation but only for 1 or 2 firing cycles because the rail pressure in that timeframe will have gone back up and stabilized. The ability to then record 1 or 2 firing cycles of detonation mixed with multiple other cylinders that had normal combustion is definitely not ideal and I think these errant detonated cycles will be masked. I’m basing this on some experience I have with watching dyno engines that are equipped with both a wideband system on every cylinder at the header near the head itself versus the standard system of the single O2 sensor in the collector. Each individual cylinder has a different air/fuel as they run yet the stock system with only one sensor that is placed downstream in the collector taking a sample from the combined 4 cylinders. You can watch the air/fuel ratio change on each cylinder while the stock single sensor in the collector seems to record around the same average number. This is where my thinking comes from that its very difficult with the stock single sensor system to accurately see what is happening in each cylinder. Even if the air/fuel average number looks okay it may not be an accurate representation of what is happening.

Now if you factor in a fuel that is at all on the edge as far as octane and resistance to detonation I think this only amplifies the magnitude of damage that can happen. This is just my own theory based on what I have seen firsthand myself and the opinion I have formed based on that. Its by no means right or fact or anything just a semi educated guess. I could be completely wrong, who knows.


And my reply:

Thanks for getting back to me. I didn't figure there would be anything from Mahle that would change the situation. I have also heard of individual cylinders leaning out, but usually furthest from the feed. The one that failed was on the feed side, and not at the corner - just not sure why it would be that one. When it gave way, rpms were between 3000 & 4000, and not at max boost since the boost builds across the rpm band with the centri blower. If, as they say it was only one or two cycles then bang, then it seems that the failure occured at a much lower level than the "18psi on pump gas" theory suggests. I'm not an engine builder or tuner. I trusted this engine was going to be more than I needed for this application based on Livernois marketing it as a 1000hp/10000rpm engine. I thought that 9.7:1 might be high for a blower, but trusted you guys and your reputation as recommending that for a centri blower. The description page used words like "bulletproof" to describe the setup. As I (and others) found out the hard way, it's far from that. It just seems to me the pistons/ringlands are inherrently fragile if they can't withstand a rattle over 2 cycles. If this engine requires race gas for any amount of boost, it should be sold as such. You had previously stated you would be changing the verbage or recommendations for this engine on the site. I think that's a good idea to keep more unsuspecting people like myself from going through this.

Any thoughts on this are appreciated. I think a lot of us - especially me - are learning something here. I do want to thank Mike at Livernois for keeping me in the loop on this. It has yet TBD what the end result is going to be for this motor (and my wallet), but just wanted to get this info up so we could continue the discussion.

 

[07ROUSHSTG3]

wow, i just read all pages. hopefully all parties involved can work out some arrangement. i will surely do a lot of research before buying a short block.

 

[akula52]

Bullet proof

I am with you about the advertising, it is misleading to say the least (Mike you guys need to changed that IMHO).

 

[Chrome61]

Here's a thought I thought I would throw in. How come the damage I have seen is 90 degrees from the piston pin? I'll let the pros think about that one. And I would have liked to mic that block myself.

Disclaimer: I no nothing about nothing

And here's the part I thought was bs, I've seen nascar engines with a lose of fuel pressure do the same thing, Jesus, they use carbs, the fuel pumps only keep the bowls full.

 

[V8SRGR8]

Here's a thought I thought I would throw in. How come the damage I have seen is 90 degrees from the piston pin? I'll let the pros think about that one. And I would have liked to mic that block myself.

Please explain this - I'm no expert.

Also as far as fuel pressure goes - I was running a GT500 dual pump setup with KB dual boost-a-pump feeding 1/2" billet rails with 60lb injectors. The feed line to the rail was also larger than stock. The dual BAP was not using the boost switch - wired full on all the time. I have a hard time believing there was not enough pressure at the injector, but I could be wrong I suppose. Like I said - I'm not an expert.

 

[2k05gt]

Here's a thought I thought I would throw in. How come the damage I have seen is 90 degrees from the piston pin? I'll let the pros think about that one. And I would have liked to mic that block myself.

Disclaimer: I no nothing about nothing

And here's the part I thought was bs, I've seen nascar engines with a lose of fuel pressure do the same thing, Jesus, they use carbs, the fuel pumps only keep the bowls full.

Exaclly I mean when did Nascar Engines use Injectors ??? NEVER
Ford Unvails NEW Engine (What is sitting on top that manifold??)
Jan 2009

http://blogs.internetautoguide.com/...-bore-upgraded-cooling-lubrication/index.html



Seeing Josh's Car in person I can tell you he left no stones unturned, it had it all, every base was covered, it had more fuel capacity to that engine with some to spare to fuel my car as well. I highly doubt it was a fuel issue.

 

[psfracer]

Please explain this - I'm no expert.

Think about it. If you held the rod and piston in your hand, how would the piston move back and forth? Yep, on a plane 90 degrees from the pin. He is saying the piston to bore clearance was wrong.

 

[V8SRGR8]

That was one of our initial theories - since that whole side had the score marks on the walls, and inconsistant compression. All four slugs on the other side of the motor had perfect walls and perfect compression.

This is why we suspected a machining problem initially, but Livernois claims everything's within specs.

 

[marcspaz]

Think about it. If you held the rod and piston in your hand, how would the piston move back and forth? Yep, on a plane 90 degrees from the pin. He is saying the piston to bore clearance was wrong.

That is what I was saying from go....

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=326550&postcount=120

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=327974&postcount=168

That was one of our initial theories - since that whole side had the score marks on the walls, and inconsistant compression. All four slugs on the other side of the motor had perfect walls and perfect compression.

This is why we suspected a machining problem initially, but Livernois claims everything's within specs.

The guy who gets caught speeding ALWAYS pleads innocent in court... this thread is pretty much over man....

 

[Chrome61]

I don't have a dog in this fight but the point was were the damage started, look at the pistons...now that it is coming apart I'm surprised the bores looked that good, shit flying everywhere.

 

[BruceH]

That was one of our initial theories - since that whole side had the score marks on the walls, and inconsistant compression. All four slugs on the other side of the motor had perfect walls and perfect compression.

This is why we suspected a machining problem initially, but Livernois claims everything's within specs.

So what did Livernois say about all those marks on the cylinder walls? That can't be considered acceptable, can it? The pictures seem to show an eneven gap in the cylinder to piston clearance. Is that how it looked in person too?

BTW thanks for laying everything out about your experience. The whole thing stinks.

 

[V8SRGR8]

Still waiting.

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Geeesh! How many damn weeks - now months - does it take for a professional engine building shop to do an engineering assessment on their damaged components with their suppliers and come up with a reasonable fix and resolution that best meets the needs of all those involved???? Come on guys! IMHO, the only "Warranty" worth a damn is when the buyer can take the failed component to a certified 'independent' shop that can't be swayed by anyone involved to make an objective engineering assessment. Their arbitration ruling is then carried out by those found at fault or no fault.

 

[tigerhonaker]

Geeesh! How many damn weeks - now months - does it take for a professional engine building shop to do an engineering assessment on their damaged components with their suppliers and come up with a reasonable fix and resolution that best meets the needs of all those involved???? Come on guys! IMHO, the only "Warranty" worth a damn is when the buyer can take the failed component to a certified 'independent' shop that can't be swayed by anyone involved to make an objective engineering assessment. Their arbitration ruling is then carried out by those found at fault or no fault.

Plus-1