Modding a 4.6 vs a Coyote
- Thread starter foxxxtman
- Start date
skwerl
tree hugger
Compression is key. First off, I'd go with the JDM 302E over the Brenspeed 302. The JDM is aluminum versus iron block in the Brenspeed which is 65 lbs you don't need on the nose of the car. Not sure on the Brenspeed specs but the JDM uses a Kellogg crank rather than an Eagle (Chinese) crank. Research it and you'll see the Kellogg is much higher quality and you can safely push it further.While reading through this, one thing popped out that has to had to the difference: compression ratio. The higher CR on coyote contributes to more power (in addition to the head flow). As such, what happens when you both stroke a 4.6 to 5.0 AND increase CR to around 11 or so? THEN how similar are they?
RE: to the above post, unless you can get the r/a for cheap, it'd be difficult to do a forged build for under $2500-3000. Shop around, look for deals, take your time, and pick up hat you can find at decent prices, and then you stand a chance!
(I'm one of those forged/stroked guys, with a 5.0L stroker 3v, pushing over 700 crank on pump gas at 18 psi. It all fits nicely within the 4.6 setup)
Another point. JDM designed their short blocks to run stock compression with the Ford Racing stage 1 replacement heads which have a 53cc combustion chamber (stock is 51cc). That means with stock heads you're running higher compression and if you go with the Ford Racing stage 3 heads (49cc) like I did, you end up with 10.7:1 compression ratio.
To put that in perspective, last week I hit 698 hp on the race tune and currently running 643hp on the street tune with 14.5 lbs of boost. All on a 3v motor.
Weou09
Senior Member
I don't understand why everyone has such a hard on for stroking these motors, especially people with FI. It just doesn't make any sense to me...
Lots of great information in here, thanks to all who are providing it! To be clear though, I don't have a hard on for stroking (no pun intended) lol, I'm just trying to find out what all options are out there. If I can build it relatively inexpensive and get the compression up and HP over 600 RWHP then that will likely be what I do but I'm not ruling out any particular options just yet.
skwerl
tree hugger
600hp is not inexpensive no matter how you get there. By the time you get done with the engine, transmission, drivetrain, fuel system, suspension, tires and brakes to handle 600hp it's not a cheap investment. If you want inexpensive then you need to scale back your wish list a bit. 500hp is inexpensive, 600hp is not.
Weou09
Senior Member
Then use your block. Throw some Boss rods in it. Get the highest comp pistons you can for under 6-700 dollars. Don't cheap out on the machine work or bearings! I built my motor for well under 3500 and would not stress taking it to 8-900hp...but read what \/ said.
With that^^^said I agree!
Well, I'm already at 500 but I've always heard that 500 on stock internals is a time bomb. Granted I usually drive it like grandma (it's my daily driver at least for a few more months) but I would rather make it safe (forged). If I initially have to leave it at 500 and keep the boost down that's fine but I want room to grow. I plan on getting a GT500 fuel setup vice my current boost-a-pump down the road as well and maybe going with a 6060 tranny later too.
BruceH
BBB Big Bore Boss 322
I don't really get it either, never have. With that said my current motor is a stroker but it also has a 3.701" bore.
I like the stock crank. There are a few of us who have been near, at, or over 700rwhp with it. Numbers on the internet don't mean a lot. My own experience has been that anything over 550rwhp becomes more of a liability than an asset on the street.
The thing about most ratings is that they aren't proven. Just an educated guess by the manufacturer. I'd love for a motor builder to correct me and show some destruction test data.
There aren't any secrets to my motor builds. I replace the parts that usually break and use Ford specs everywhere except for the piston to bore and rings. I use bearings that are close to stock or stock. I'm not a fan of bearings with a soft layer that are meant to catch debris and need to be inspected frequently by tearing down the motor. I'm not building a race motor.
A search would turn up a few of my builds and the results. They aren't race motors. They are built to handle a reasonable level of boost while still being street friendly.
Fuel has also built a motor that is very close to what I do. He is over 700rwhp with a turbo.
I don't know about the boss rods. I know that they are cheap and made from sintered iron like gt500 rods are. To me they look like shorter gt500 rods. I have two sets of them in the garage but have no experience with them in a motor. There are some very good piston deals on ebay. You just need to shop around and be ready to jump on a good deal. Greg@Hypermotive also has great deals on Wiseco pistons that come with rings.
Saleen S281
Member
Subbd!
v8venomgt
Senior Member
another thing, what is the average boosted and forged/built 3v RWHP RWTQ ceiling in any/all boost combinations/ any compression ratio but using 93 octane only.
reason being, if say 750rwhp or so is the average 93 octane can produce or has been seen, then all youd ever *need* is a "thousand horsepower" capable block. custom built or vendor shortblock. if that's the case the boss rods are a no brainer!
reason being, if say 750rwhp or so is the average 93 octane can produce or has been seen, then all youd ever *need* is a "thousand horsepower" capable block. custom built or vendor shortblock. if that's the case the boss rods are a no brainer!
BruceH
BBB Big Bore Boss 322
FYI Manley rates their h beams at 700 hp. Not rwhp. The boss rods are beefier than stock but there is no way they are as strong as a hbeam with arp2000 bolts.
What are people pushing the boss rods to? Here's a pic of a generic h beam next to a boss rod. Just as a guesstimation I'd think the boss rods could handle as much as a gt500 stock rod. The reason I say that is because they look very similar, are made the same way with the same material, and the boss rods should be stronger due to being shorter.
v8venomgt
Senior Member
FYI Manley rates their h beams at 700 hp. Not rwhp. The boss rods are beefier than stock but there is no way they are as strong as a hbeam with arp2000 bolts.
What are people pushing the boss rods to? Here's a pic of a generic h beam next to a boss rod. Just as a guesstimation I'd think the boss rods could handle as much as a gt500 stock rod. The reason I say that is because they look very similar, are made the same way with the same material, and the boss rods should be stronger due to being shorter.
thanks bruce. I thought I read on here that the boss rods were pushing 700/-750 and holding but that could be bad info on my part. I don't have a thread subscribed on hand that mentioned that. the boss rods are no doubt an improvement over stock. im just trying to gauge if the boss rods would safely handle the ceiling of what a 3v can handle on 93 octane.
when talking HP ratings, the manufacture rate them for XXX hp at XXXX RPM, another oddity to try and calculate.
A rod that is good for 750 at 9000 rpm can work fine in 1200 HP at 7000 RPM (for instance - no actual data - just an expample)
A rod that is good for 750 at 9000 rpm can work fine in 1200 HP at 7000 RPM (for instance - no actual data - just an expample)
fuck you Frankie
yes, I keep in in a garage, yes I race it... street racing fo reeelzzz bro!
yes, I keep in in a garage, yes I race it... street racing fo reeelzzz bro!
I suspect darrenism, just sayin'
I should pink your ass for such heresy!!!
The car has near 20,000 on the odometer now!
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