Modding a 4.6 vs a Coyote

[fdjizm]

Ok Ok fine maybe darrenism was a bit too far!

 

[foxxxtman]

I feel bad every morning when I go out to start mine and see the rain/dew on it..... I have a 1 car garage that needs cleaned out and need to get a 4 banger to daily drive so I can park it in there all nice and warm. I refuse to move my wife's vehicle every day to pull it in and out since I daily drive it at the moment.

I guess that's one positive thing I have going for me, the car currently has 39lb injectors and a boost-a-pump so the tuner put my rev limiter at 6100 I think it was because it was maxing the fuel system at that point. I always heard that it's the RPMs that kill and not necessarily as much the HP so hopefully having that somewhat conservative tune and low RPM max will make her hold together until I get the daily driver car and time/money to leave it sit. I usually drive like grandma anyways though because red mustangs are cop magnets around here!

 

[v8venomgt]

^yup. My buddy is at 530 rwhp or so on a stock block 3v and its lived for 3 years although it doesnt see a lot of miles either

 

[fdjizm]

Well no shit it's lived for 3 years when is the last time it actually saw over 500hp?
That's one thing I hate in the car community "shit I been running 600hp for 4 years" but you don't do shit with the car, no shit!!!
If the last time the car saw the HP you claimed it was on the dyno, then there is no reason to brag about your car still being alive.

 

[v8venomgt]

Actually I think its been blown since 09 maybe 10. He doesnt brag about it. It just is what it is. While it doesnt see a lot of miles he definitely puts it through its paces when he takes it out. He just keeps the rpm at a reasonable level and uses common sense.

 

[fdjizm]

Well that's good.
I've bumped into quite a few guys who brag about having lots of HP on the stock stuff, but when you ask them if they race they say nah never and don't plan to...
LOL leaves you kind of rolling your eyes ya know...

 

[v8venomgt]

Ha yeah. Hes been to the track with it but its not his thing so he sold his race stars. Hes not shy about banging gears on the street though lol. But yeah ive def encountered what you have.

 

[foxxxtman]

I usually drive very conservatively until I have the random subaru/honda pull up on me and start acting like they want some, then it's on, great thing about having a car that "looks" fully stock. I know it only takes one good time winding it out though, although not as likely as if I were dragging it every single weekend. I have the 4.10 gear in it too which makes me not want to break the speed limit too bad on the highway, if i'm doing 65 i'm tacking 2250 so it sounds like it's going harder than it is since I'm running an uncatted-x and pypes violators.

 

[Jeffs FRC]

^yup. My buddy is at 530 rwhp or so on a stock block 3v and its lived for 3 years although it doesnt see a lot of miles either

Checking in Kirby! Think I put the blower on the car winter of '09 and currently have about 6k miles on the setup. Matt is right, I'm no track junkie, but I'll put the pedal down to have some fun on the weekends.

I'm gonna pay attention to this thread cause I think I'm gonna start gathering parts to build my motor for next year. Looking to do a simple build using stock crank. So pistons, rods, arp hardware, bearings, frpp pump, and maybe a set of cams. I will be utilizing my Novi2200 which has already been converted to a blow through setup. Shooting for 650-700 rwhp on 93 pump.

BruceH, you seem to be "the guy" to talk to about the very setup I'm interested in. Could you point me in the right direction on what you think I should do? Basically, I want you to spoon feed me exactly what you would buy and install! Lol

 

[foxxxtman]

Love the look of your wheel setup and hood Jeff, that set-up just looks nice together. Sounds like we're both on a similar set-up and looking to do that same thing lol. I'm also blow-through on my Novi and running the upgraded pulley so probably close on HP. I've had mine a shorter time and more miles on it though lol. I have some PM's from BruceH, he knows his crap!
I'm a newbie and it's going to take some time to learn, he did mention to me that if you go with a new iron block that it is around $800 and that there isn't nearly as much machine work to do. Sound like the difference almost makes up for the cost of the block. I can forward those to you if you'd like rather than him have to type them again.

 

[foxxxtman]

I think we need to pay BruceH to post up all the parts on exactly how he would do the "solid budget build" lol. From what I've gathered so far it would likely be an iron block, stock crank, boss rods and he said don't skimp in the bearings and such! I'd be interested in seeing a parts list if he was up to it though lol

 

[Weou09]

I think we need to pay BruceH to post up all the parts on exactly how he would do the "solid budget build" lol. From what I've gathered so far it would likely be an iron block, stock crank, boss rods and he said don't skimp in the bearings and such! I'd be interested in seeing a parts list if he was up to it though lol

Why pay money for a block? Everything else I agree with. I would shoot for at least 10.5:1 as far as piston choice goes. Other than that I think any manufacturer would be fine.

 

[07graygt]

Only reason you would want to do an iron block is if your gonna use the boss block. You can re use the stock block and crank and boss rods and some pistons. That would be a true budget build. Devster just did one using ace rods instead of boss rods. He used diamond pistons .020 for I think 11-1.

 

[BruceH]

Why pay money for a block? Everything else I agree with. I would shoot for at least 10.5:1 as far as piston choice goes. Other than that I think any manufacturer would be fine.

If you do your homework you will find that there are Roush overstock Mahle pistons with rings that were made to drop into a new stock block. They go for $440 shipped. The bad part is they will probably be right around 9:1 compression. However, they should drop right into a new 4.6 iron block. That's important because Ford already finished it. It's properly decked and honed. There is a slight chance that the ptb would be off with this combo but it's slight. The Mahle pistons can use a ptb of .001-.002". That means all he has to do is measure the gap with a piston skirt installed in the bore. If it's from .0005-.001" it's good. The older gt500 spec for Mahle 4032 pistons even allowed a slight positive clearance between the bore and pistons measurements. The ptb can be so tight because the pistons are made from 4032 and they are skirt coated.

I'm sure there are more than a few reading this who wouldn't run pistons that tight. Ford has an excellent track record doing it with the gt500. For those who would like to see the specs they are here: http://iihs.net/fsm/?dir=168&viewfile=SPECIFICATIONS.pdf

Notice a max ptb of .001". The blocks aren't torque plate honed either. I'm pretty sure the crank doesn't have center counterweights but not 100% on that.

Anyhow, not having to bore, hone, deck, or check the main line means that all you need is to have the rotating assembly balanced. This will save a significant amount of money. You will also have your stock block left over for a more serious build in the future.

 

[BruceH]

FYI Manley rates their h beams at 700 hp. Not rwhp. The boss rods are beefier than stock but there is no way they are as strong as a hbeam with arp2000 bolts.

What are people pushing the boss rods to? Here's a pic of a generic h beam next to a boss rod. Just as a guesstimation I'd think the boss rods could handle as much as a gt500 stock rod. The reason I say that is because they look very similar, are made the same way with the same material, and the boss rods should be stronger due to being shorter.

This is the Boss rod next to a Mach 1 4v rod. At first glance they look similar but there are some big differences.

You can see more meat all over the rod when compared. The center of the beam is .190" thick on the Boss rod and .100" on the 4v. The top and bottom of the I are noticeably thicker.

Rod bolts are 12 point but there are no markings on them. Under head length is 1.75". Nine threads engage the rod when fully installed. Bolts are 3/8" diameter.

 

[W3bb3r04]

I have the boss rods in my motor with 10.25:1 compression positions. I have not turned it up much yet but plan on ~650 rwhp. The way I look at it is the Boss rods have held right at 800 rwhp in the bosses to 7000-7500 rpm. I'm only going to turn my motor to 6500 so I should have nothing to worry about. The sintered rods are strong when it comes to compressing (high boost and power) but are weaker when it comes to stretching (high rpm).

 

[Department Of Boost]

I think a lot of you are looking at this from the bottom up rather than the top down.

On a blown car the blower makes the power. Period. It is what is “metering” the air going into the motor. And the amount of air in the motor defines how much power it makes (add fuel, make go boom). When comparing a 3v to a Coyote (lets assume at the same compression ration) the only real difference is the head flow. So, they will make the same power, but the 3v will have higher boost. Same amount of air, different resistance.

Now if you are trying to build a max effort pump gas motor the Coyote would be the way to go. It will make more power on less boost and let you run 93 octane at a higher HP. How much HP I don’t know, it’s not like the Coyote heads flow THAT much more than the 3v stuff does. My wild ass guess 50-75hp.

If you are going to run e85 or race fuel it starts to not matter as much anymore because a couple pounds of boost extra (on the 3v) will be taken care of by the fuel.

Now if your going to build a max effort motor and go for 800+hp you are certainly dealing with e85 or race fuel and big blower. So head flow, where it is nice is not at the top of the priority list. Don’t forget the 3v heads flow big block type numbers. Top priority is keeping the bottom end together. And this is where the Coyote has a shortcoming. Without extensive block mods (expensive) you will split the block. The 3v block on the other hand, or better yet aluminum or iron Teksid blocks or a BOSS iron block will hold up to whatever you can throw its way. I’ve heard of stock 3v blocks living in the 1300+hp range.

Money no object I would build a Coyote for a max effort. But I don’t see myself being in a “money no object” situation anytime soon.

 

[foxxxtman]

After gathering a lot of info and doing a lot of research, I'm sure I will have to do this in somewhat of a phased approach. Right now I'm leaning towards using the stock block and crank and forging her out with some good pistons/rods/bearings and such and running higher compression. I'll likely upgrade to a GT500 fuel pump at this same point and bump the injectors up to at least 60 pounds or so. I think that the additional capabilities in the fuel system, being able to rev the car a little higher (since it's forged and I wont be tapping the fuel system) and maybe swapping a pulley on the supercharger I may get at least somewhat close to 600.

Phase 2 will likely be swapping the 3650 for a 6060 or building the 3650 and getting an aluminum driveshaft. I'll upgrade the clutch and flywheel when I do the transmission (yeah, I'm still running the stock 3650 and clutch with no problems but I only use street tires so they seem to give before anything else). I'll also do some suspension modifications at this point in the form of upper/lower control arms, panhard bar, and maybe a few odds and ends. It would be nice to have the cashflow to do all that stuff at once but my wife would probably try to beat my car to death with a claw hammer if I tried to do it all at once hahahaha.

 

[v8venomgt]

I think a lot of you are looking at this from the bottom up rather than the top down.

On a blown car the blower makes the power. Period. It is what is “metering” the air going into the motor. And the amount of air in the motor defines how much power it makes (add fuel, make go boom). When comparing a 3v to a Coyote (lets assume at the same compression ration) the only real difference is the head flow. So, they will make the same power, but the 3v will have higher boost. Same amount of air, different resistance.

Now if you are trying to build a max effort pump gas motor the Coyote would be the way to go. It will make more power on less boost and let you run 93 octane at a higher HP. How much HP I don’t know, it’s not like the Coyote heads flow THAT much more than the 3v stuff does. My wild ass guess 50-75hp.

If you are going to run e85 or race fuel it starts to not matter as much anymore because a couple pounds of boost extra (on the 3v) will be taken care of by the fuel.

Now if your going to build a max effort motor and go for 800+hp you are certainly dealing with e85 or race fuel and big blower. So head flow, where it is nice is not at the top of the priority list. Don’t forget the 3v heads flow big block type numbers. Top priority is keeping the bottom end together. And this is where the Coyote has a shortcoming. Without extensive block mods (expensive) you will split the block. The 3v block on the other hand, or better yet aluminum or iron Teksid blocks or a BOSS iron block will hold up to whatever you can throw its way. I’ve heard of stock 3v blocks living in the 1300+hp range.

Money no object I would build a Coyote for a max effort. But I don’t see myself being in a “money no object” situation anytime soon.

that answers a lot of questions, and gives some good solid perspective. even though its not factual, to speculate that the coyote is good for 50-75 horsepower more in comparable situations, doesn't really seem to be worth the hassle of another car note, or an expensive powerplant swap given the perks you listed of the 3v block.

 

[Rpm427sc]

Starting next week, I'm going to be kicking my project into high gear. I'm going to document it as much as I can. I basically hit the 600rwhp ish limit of my Whippled 3v and decided to do this swap. Check it out if you want!

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=110807