possibly lost/seized the motor today

[TurboX]

Im betting it all started with thrust bearing and does have something to do with the auto as TMCOLEGR said. Perhaps it could be as simple as just new bearings and a crank, lots of options.

 

[Vapour Trails]

There was a discussion in the past on the tight thrust on his engine (and mine for that matter) that might cause a problem with an auto if the converter balloons.

It looks like indeed this has finally happened. I think you're looking at a teardown and rebuild but at least not catastrophic damage.

 

[lostsoul]

Damn I hate seeing this stuff. When you posted this I didnt know what to say and hoping things were not that bad. I have been in the same situation 2 times now =-/. I agree with the others try to find out what happened then take a break from it. Later you can save for a short block and get the local homies to help out.

No one said it would be easy to become a 70K member =-/...

 

[FalconGTHO]

It would take more than four guys to lift the car over the motor and trans and move it back. Unless you've got four powerlifters.

No, Im saying the front of the car is on stands, wheels off. K member and related pieces unbolted but still in place. Rear wheels on the ground. Two guys on each side lift up on the front and roll back and set it down on stands on the sub frame stubs. Think Funny Car body. All the engine and trans weight stays behind so how much can the front end still weigh divided by 4 guys? Or a 5th if needed.

 

[fdjizm]

I guess fucking up a bearing and crank is better than poking a hold in your block and throwing a rod or melting a piston?

 

[PNR Welding]

No, Im saying the front of the car is on stands, wheels off. K member and related pieces unbolted but still in place. Rear wheels on the ground. Two guys on each side lift up on the front and roll back and set it down on stands on the sub frame stubs. Think Funny Car body. All the engine and trans weight stays behind so how much can the front end still weigh divided by 4 guys? Or a 5th if needed.

Not a bad idea, but I'd try it with maybe 2 on each side. 2 on right quarter panels, 2 on front bumper, and 2 on left quarter panel. Total of 6 guys should be able to roll it over the drivetrain.

 

[JerryC]

How about 4 of these or just two and a GOOD floor jack under the rear?
http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-Performance-ALL10129-Standard-Caster/dp/B003BZQRH6
With 4 of them two people could spin the car around in the garage. I thunk you could do it with two and a really good floor jack, but it would be much less "exciting" with 4 dollies.

If you are going to store the car and fix it later, these would be really handly for that too.

 

[PNR Welding]

How about 4 of these or just two and a GOOD floor jack under the rear?
http://www.amazon.com/Allstar-Performance-ALL10129-Standard-Caster/dp/B003BZQRH6
With 4 of them two people could spin the car around in the garage. I thunk you could do it with two and a really good floor jack, but it would be much less "exciting" with 4 dollies.

If you are going to store the car and fix it later, these would be really handly for that too.

My concern with those and even with 4 - 6 people picking it up, will be that they couldnt get it high enough over the motor. The front bumper support will be in the way and you would have to lift it over that.

And in regards to my last post on lifting on the quarter panels, there is really no where to grab to lift unless you take them off.

 

[JerryC]

My concern with those and even with 4 - 6 people picking it up, will be that they couldnt get it high enough over the motor. The front bumper support will be in the way and you would have to lift it over that.

I'm talking about using them to get the car turned around so that he can pull the motor with nose of the car in the driveway. He wouldnt need a bunch of guys to muscle it down and back up the driveway, he could just spin the car in the garage.

 

[94tbird]

You don't need to do any further disassembly to check crankshaft end play. Stick a pry bar between the block and crankshaft counterweights and try to move the crankshaft fore and aft - it should move back and forth about .006" - .015". If it won't move fore and aft, you probably have one or more failed main bearings.

To check the rod bearings without further disassembly of the short block, do the same to each of them. They should move fore & aft. According to your spec sheet, your short block states the rods should have .022" of side clearance. If you find one or more that doesn't move, that rod most likely has a failed bearing. Good news is I don't see any discernible discoloration from heat on any of the rods.

PS: your spec sheet states the crankshaft had .005" end play. Man that's tight!! OEM spec. is .003" - .015". With the bearing material you have in the pan, you may have failed the thrust bearing. Your rod and main bearing clearances are also very close to OEM specs. All OEM specs are for use with 5W20 engine oil.

What weight oil are you running?

the discussion on the crank end play was had already. its within spec, tight or not

10w40 as per engine builder

Looks like the crank is gonna either have to get cut or replaced after seeing those bearing material. Before you start taking the rods and mains off, move the rods/caps back and forth and they all should give some play. Move them on the crank shaft, almost like wiggling them to get them to slide on the throw of the crank. See if one rod will not move, then that is your culprit if it is in the rods. Also, check out what that thrust bearing looks like, make sure the half moon wedge bearing is in good shape. When my thrust bearing went, the cap was purple and the outer bearing/half moon plate was in pieces and beat to hell. I would do what Tmcolegr said with checking end play. Mine was set from JDM at .009 and when I recently built the motor it is still at .009.

how would i move the rods? by hand? where is the thrust bearing?

There was a discussion in the past on the tight thrust on his engine (and mine for that matter) that might cause a problem with an auto if the converter balloons.

It looks like indeed this has finally happened. I think you're looking at a teardown and rebuild but at least not catastrophic damage.

lets be real here, we do not know that is the case whatsoever. lets not jump to conclusions.

 

[tmcolegr]

how would i move the rods? by hand? where is the thrust bearing?

You should be able to grab the rod caps by hand and move them side to side - .022" in your case as that was your connecting rod side clearance

the thrust bearing is on #5 main

 

[DirtyDogOfTheDesert]

As mentioned crank thrust is on the tight side but is within spec. Bearing failure does not introduce coolant into the oil. However coolant in the oil can and will destroy bearings. The root cause needs to be found, not just the collateral damage.

 

[PNR Welding]

Grab the rod where the line intersects and move them the way the arrow goes. They should have some movement back and forth, little, but some.
This will tell if a rod bearing seized to the crank. Then if that passes then the main bearings will have to be checked next. The thrust bearing is the first to check on that. That bearing/cap is the closest to trans/converter.

 

[tmcolegr]

As mentioned crank thrust is on the tight side but is within spec. Bearing failure does not introduce coolant into the oil. However coolant in the oil can and will destroy bearings. The root cause needs to be found, not just the collateral damage.

Now would be the time, prior to the cooling system being compromised, to pressurize the cooling system and identify where the coolant is coming from.

 

[94tbird]

cooling system has already been breached unfortunately.


Im jsut gonig to pull the motor and trans next.


I have a few options on a rebuild. If the block pistons and rods are fine, and i jsut need a new crank and some bearings. now would be the time to make sure stuff is right. Things like looknig into oringing the blok, ect. Anyone recommend anything for high boost?

 

[tmcolegr]

How much trouble would it be to refill the cooling system? I suggest finding out where the coolant came from before disassembling the engine. You could be building the engine with a block or heads that you perceive to be good when in reality one of them has had a failure.

I also suggest checking end play in the crank shaft before removing the transmission from the engine. If you have a failed thrust bearing this will help identify if the T/C ballooned and thrust the crankshaft forward.

I just don't want to see you get this engine and transmission back in the vehicle and still have a problem.

 

[94tbird]

How much trouble would it be to refill the cooling system? I suggest finding out where the coolant came from before disassembling the engine. You could be building the engine with a block or heads that you perceive to be good when in reality one of them has had a failure.

I also suggest checking end play in the crank shaft before removing the transmission from the engine. If you have a failed thrust bearing this will help identify if the T/C ballooned and thrust the crankshaft forward.

I just don't want to see you get this engine and transmission back in the vehicle and still have a problem.

i am really not comfortable checking something i know nothing about. I could put a prybar in there and would know if it moved or not, but how much or why, or if i was even doing it right? that i wouldnt know.

wouldnt whomever i have rebuild the motor check the block?

 

[PNR Welding]

Hey Ron, if you need a machine shop let me know. I can pressure test the block/heads for cracks, bore/hone, deck the block/heads, oring the block and also machine the rear thrust to allow a full thrust bearing and machine the thrust bearing for better oiling. It would require to drill the bulkhead of the block to allow oil pressure at the back face of the crank. The block will have to be machined to accept a full thrust bearing. You will need to get 2 sets of main bearings though, unless you can get them to sell two lower thrust bearings, and we might have the other mains in stock.

Bring the block down assembled and I can check the end play for you and bearing clearances if you dont feel comfortable.

 

[94tbird]

Hey Ron, if you need a machine shop let me know. I can pressure test the block/heads for cracks, bore/hone, deck the block/heads, oring the block and also machine the rear thrust to allow a full thrust bearing and machine the thrust bearing for better oiling. It would require to drill the bulkhead of the block to allow oil pressure at the back face of the crank. The block will have to be machined to accept a full thrust bearing. You will need to get 2 sets of main bearings though, unless you can get them to sell two lower thrust bearings, and we might have the other mains in stock.

Thanks paul. i will let you know for sure!

 

[94tbird]

well, its seeming liek a head gasket failure at the moment, as i can actually see, and have witnessed tonight, water/coolant droplets coming down the rod, making a path down the crank counterweight, and dripping to the floor. sure seems liek a blown headgasket, hydrolock to me now.