So I REALLY need the spring compressor for Hot Rod cam install?

[UltraKla$$ic]

I can give you my number if you run into problems. THis is cake if you pay attention.

 

[wabirch]

FRPP cam install instructions are helpful.

 

[Greg Hazlett]

That's what the link is that I posted.

 

[Davenow]

The HRs may not make as much power as a FI cam, but its not going to make less than the stock cams would. So "not work well" is a relative thing. (I know, you said that, just putting in my 2cents)


Keep my modest HP levels in mind. Even if I DO end up going with a centri, lets look at my mod list, before the centri

JLT intake
GT500tb
FRPP intake manifold
Hot Rod cams
JBA Lts/high flow cat H
Electric water pump.

Now, remember, I dont want over 400whp.

Even the non intercooled Vortech kit, damn near hits that with nothing but headers (from what I have seen)

So factoring in my other mods, I would already be well beyond the 400 number, so going to a more FI friendly cam, is only going to make it worse. (I know, I know, I am totally aware of how INSANE the fact that I am calling making more power "worse" sounds) My 400whp goal isnt only a goal, its a limit I set for myself, I am willing to go maybe 10whp higher if that is where I end up, Ill say close enough.

I love the way the HRs sound, and for what I want, I simply dont need more cam. Hell I dont even need them period if I am going FI, but I want the sound, and I may never go FI, and if I do, its gonna be a good 2 years out easy. I am not the sit around with my thumbs up my ass not having a mean ass idle because 2 years from now I may go with something that negates the need for the power the cams will bring. (and yes, I know, they dont bring THAT much, but 20-30whp is more than enough)

 

[Davenow]

I can give you my number if you run into problems. THis is cake if you pay attention.

PM it to me just in case, but I think I should be good. The guy coming has done cams before, but not NSRs and not without the tools.

 

[Greg Hazlett]

Well....with my V2 I made 430 with stock cams, Kooks LT's, CMD plugs, BBK TB, catted H and I think that it is it.

You will be over 400 with any FI, even the almighty baby blower, the M90-that's for you Nick-so if you want to stay away from 400 don't go FI.

On the flip side you will be hard pressed to get close to 400 hp NA even with heads.

 

[Aandf1978]

Well....with my V2 I made 430 with stock cams, Kooks LT's, CMD plugs, BBK TB, catted H and I think that it is it.

You will be over 400 with any FI, even the almighty baby blower, the M90-that's for you Nick-so if you want to stay away from 400 don't go FI.

On the flip side you will be hard pressed to get close to 400 hp NA even with heads.

NICE!!

I see what you did there, and I like it!!

 

[Davenow]

Well....with my V2 I made 430 with stock cams, Kooks LT's, CMD plugs, BBK TB, catted H and I think that it is it.

You will be over 400 with any FI, even the almighty baby blower, the M90-that's for you Nick-so if you want to stay away from 400 don't go FI.

On the flip side you will be hard pressed to get close to 400 hp NA even with heads.

Yeah I am figuring like 375-380 with the heads.

I DO love the sound of a PD blower though. I suppose I could keep the cams, go back to stock manifolds and a high flow cat H pipe and do the M90, then detune it on 87 octane and be about where I want to be

That will depend on budget though. The M90 is a good 1500 bucks more than the cheapest vortech kit. (which wouldnt get me the sound the PD blowers make anyway)

 

[Greg Hazlett]

Keep in mind about the heads that the bang for the buck is not cost efficient; by the time you purhcase the heads, get all the stuff needed for a head swap, install the heads and adjust the tune you will gain approx 20-25 hp; bolt on a form of FI and you will bolt on 100+ for close to the same price....I know because I looked into going all out NA until I did some research and others pointed out the hp vs $$ deficiency staying NA was.

Can I ask what the self imposed 400 hp limit is about?

 

[Davenow]

Keep in mind about the heads that the bang for the buck is not cost efficient; by the time you purhcase the heads, get all the stuff needed for a head swap, install the heads and adjust the tune you will gain approx 20-25 hp; bolt on a form of FI and you will bolt on 100+ for close to the same price....I know because I looked into going all out NA until I did some research and others pointed out the hp vs $$ deficiency staying NA was.

Can I ask what the self imposed 400 hp limit is about?

A couple reasons.

1. I know it will be more than fast enough to wipe the floor with most of what is out there, on the RARE occasions that it matters.
2. I know its plenty to get me deep enough into the 12s on drag radials, which is where I want to be, and even on 285 556s I will be in the 12s.
3. Self control. I have some of it. Not enough of it. Its a low enough number to keep myself in check somewhat.
4. Reliability. I know these motors are fine even at 450, but its even safer at 400. I also know I can tune it on 87 and be there if I go FI. Ill just pull timing back and keep boost low and it will be happier than a pig in shit.


And I just dont care anymore. Like I have said in the past, I had a 500whp rocketship. 500whp with AWD is a completely different animal than what 500whp RWD is like on the street. Because it hooks so much more, you accelerate so much faster (till about 70) (although I had wheelspin in 4th from a roll on my big boost map) I dont need that, I dont want it. I also know what 500whp feels like on any street tire, and I have no desire to plant myself backwards into a tree, which, while I am a very good driver and almost always drive like an old man, there are those times when you STAND on it, and 500whp can lose it in a very bad unrecoverable way a lot easier than 400whp can. I dont care about being that fast anymore, I just sort of feel like that part of my life is over and behind me.

Honestly, 400 is sort of an arbitrary goal, and a more solid limit. I dont think I need 400 to be satisfied and happy with the performance. I am already almost happy with it, and I dont have my LTs installed yet, I dont have the cams in yet. I am looking at what? 40+whp with those 2 things? There is a decent chance I will do them, and be fine with it. If not, its going to be close enough to where the heads will get me there.

Also, I really like the idea of having all the restrictions gone. And if I get a wild hair up my ass for more power, well think about what the basic vortech kit on top of the heads/cams/intake manifold/TB/LTs would do. I know, again, not a FI optimized cam, but that non intercooled vortech at low boost, would put down plenty for all but the most power hungry.


To be realistic, I know how I think, and even if I said fuck it, scrapped the cams for now, magically found the money for a TVS, I would STILL obsess about getting the lumpy idle, and not having ported heads.




Why am I so obsessed with the idea of heads/cams? (besides the lumpy idle) Hell man, why do any of us obsess pointlessly about anything. I just WANT it. Even if its a bit pointless. The way I look at it, if I can do the cams, then I can do a head swap, since the only additional thing I would need to worry about would be timing the motor, which isnt difficult. And the FRPP heads are about 1900-2000 including the bolts/gaskets (1750ish for the heads, plus whatever the gasket/bolt kit cost is) which is still well below the basic vortech kit. So its not like its an amazingly huge expenditure. Is it the best bang for the buck? No, its 20 or so whp for 2000 bucks. But when you are approaching a ceiling on the power (even if its self imposed) and you are an obsessive compulsive mental basket case that has some burning NEED to have every path air touches improved, you are left with no choice.

For real, I am not OCD, but I am Bi-Polar II which brings some OCD tendencies to the table, so I have given up any real hope of NOT doing the heads, even though I keep trying to convince myself I will be happy with the power level. (which I will probably be, but even if I AM happy with the power level without them, I will still almost definitely be obsessing over them)




if you could run out of breath typing, I would do it on a regular basis

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

I don't think I've said that much all week!!!!!!

 

[Fallenauthority]

A couple reasons.

1. I know it will be more than fast enough to wipe the floor with most of what is out there, on the RARE occasions that it matters.
2. I know its plenty to get me deep enough into the 12s on drag radials, which is where I want to be, and even on 285 556s I will be in the 12s.
3. Self control. I have some of it. Not enough of it. Its a low enough number to keep myself in check somewhat.
4. Reliability. I know these motors are fine even at 450, but its even safer at 400. I also know I can tune it on 87 and be there if I go FI. Ill just pull timing back and keep boost low and it will be happier than a pig in shit.


And I just dont care anymore. Like I have said in the past, I had a 500whp rocketship. 500whp with AWD is a completely different animal than what 500whp RWD is like on the street. Because it hooks so much more, you accelerate so much faster (till about 70) (although I had wheelspin in 4th from a roll on my big boost map) I dont need that, I dont want it. I also know what 500whp feels like on any street tire, and I have no desire to plant myself backwards into a tree, which, while I am a very good driver and almost always drive like an old man, there are those times when you STAND on it, and 500whp can lose it in a very bad unrecoverable way a lot easier than 400whp can. I dont care about being that fast anymore, I just sort of feel like that part of my life is over and behind me.

Honestly, 400 is sort of an arbitrary goal, and a more solid limit. I dont think I need 400 to be satisfied and happy with the performance. I am already almost happy with it, and I dont have my LTs installed yet, I dont have the cams in yet. I am looking at what? 40+whp with those 2 things? There is a decent chance I will do them, and be fine with it. If not, its going to be close enough to where the heads will get me there.

Also, I really like the idea of having all the restrictions gone. And if I get a wild hair up my ass for more power, well think about what the basic vortech kit on top of the heads/cams/intake manifold/TB/LTs would do. I know, again, not a FI optimized cam, but that non intercooled vortech at low boost, would put down plenty for all but the most power hungry.


To be realistic, I know how I think, and even if I said fuck it, scrapped the cams for now, magically found the money for a TVS, I would STILL obsess about getting the lumpy idle, and not having ported heads.




Why am I so obsessed with the idea of heads/cams? (besides the lumpy idle) Hell man, why do any of us obsess pointlessly about anything. I just WANT it. Even if its a bit pointless. The way I look at it, if I can do the cams, then I can do a head swap, since the only additional thing I would need to worry about would be timing the motor, which isnt difficult. And the FRPP heads are about 1900-2000 including the bolts/gaskets (1750ish for the heads, plus whatever the gasket/bolt kit cost is) which is still well below the basic vortech kit. So its not like its an amazingly huge expenditure. Is it the best bang for the buck? No, its 20 or so whp for 2000 bucks. But when you are approaching a ceiling on the power (even if its self imposed) and you are an obsessive compulsive mental basket case that has some burning NEED to have every path air touches improved, you are left with no choice.

For real, I am not OCD, but I am Bi-Polar II which brings some OCD tendencies to the table, so I have given up any real hope of NOT doing the heads, even though I keep trying to convince myself I will be happy with the power level. (which I will probably be, but even if I AM happy with the power level without them, I will still almost definitely be obsessing over them)




if you could run out of breath typing, I would do it on a regular basis

You WILL NOT make safe power on 87 octane with boost. Just not happening, plan on running 93 bud.

 

[Davenow]

You WILL NOT make safe power on 87 octane with boost. Just not happening, plan on running 93 bud.

If a setup can do say 450 on 93 it can do 400 on a lot less. Pull the timing and it should be fine. 50whp may not be the difference from 93 to 87 though... Maybe 89. I know on 350ish hp 4 cyl turbos, the difference between 91 and 93 is about 20whp, so I dont think a 50whp drop to go to 87 is unreasonable to expect.


In the end, what octane you run, is irrelevant in terms of the power being safe or not. The tune is what makes it safe or not. You tune the engine to the conditions it will be operating under, Altitude, octane, etc. So tuning it on 87 is no less safe than 93. You just cant tune it for as much power on 87 as you can on 93. So if a car could do, like I said, 450ish on 93, I am betting tuning it on 87 would land you right around 400.


Im not saying it WILL hit 400 on 87, but I am betting it wont be far off. Obviously this is with custom tuning because no one is going to have an 87 supercharger tune around lol. Its gonna need a LOT of timing yanked.




And dont talk down to me with that "bud" shit. I have been building, modifying, and tuning cars for a long time ( I know, then why the thread full of stupid questions...) and although I may be a relative newbie to the mechanical specifics (hence the thread of stupid questions) of the modular ford motor, EFI is EFI, and the principles although differing slightly, are essentially the same.

Not trying to be a dick here, but that "bud" condescending bullshit pisses me off.

 

[Greg Hazlett]

Whoa....wow....c'mon....you came in asking for advice/help.....talking that way on here is going to shut that door in a hurry.

 

[Fallenauthority]

If a setup can do say 450 on 93 it can do 400 on a lot less. Pull the timing and it should be fine. 50whp may not be the difference from 93 to 87 though... Maybe 89. I know on 350ish hp 4 cyl turbos, the difference between 91 and 93 is about 20whp, so I dont think a 50whp drop to go to 87 is unreasonable to expect.


In the end, what octane you run, is irrelevant in terms of the power being safe or not. The tune is what makes it safe or not. You tune the engine to the conditions it will be operating under, Altitude, octane, etc. So tuning it on 87 is no less safe than 93. You just cant tune it for as much power on 87 as you can on 93. So if a car could do, like I said, 450ish on 93, I am betting tuning it on 87 would land you right around 400.



And dont fucking talk down to me with that "bud" shit. I have been tuning cars for a long fucking time and although I may be a relative newbie to the mechanical specifics of the modular ford motor, EFI is EFI, and the principles although differing slightly, are essentially the same.

What I am saying with the 93 instead of 87 comment is I dont care what your tune is, if you are boosted you NEED to use 93. I am not talking about HP differences between octanes. If you get any decent amount of detonation with these motors while boosted you can count on building another motor.
Dont get a fucking attitude with me when I am trying to keep you from making a stupid mistake of running shitty low octane fuel on a boosted 3v.
These are not mechanical specifics, this is just common fucking sense.
I come from a DEEP DSM background, so I know boosted 4 cyl platforms too, NOBODY I know EVER ran other than 93. It is just stupid to try and run 87 octane on ANYTHING boosted.
And that was not being condescending, bud is a friendly term. If I was being condescending I wouldve said "plan on running 93 dumbfuck"

 

[white05gt]

^^^^^Pretty sure some areas don't even have 93 octane.

 

[Fallenauthority]

^^^^^Pretty sure some areas don't even have 93 octane.

91 is available in those areas who dont have 93. There is no reason to run 87 octane, especially if you are FI. Just a bad idea.

 

[TexasBlownV8]

Dave, I've done a couple cam swaps using heater hose as a wedge. Torqued the cap caps down to 89 inch-pounds per spec; and torqued NEW ttl cam sprocket bolts per specs as well.

Dont use a screwdriver with tape or rag; pieces can get torn off and left behind, or come loose altogether.

 

[Davenow]

And that was not being condescending, bud is a friendly term. If I was being condescending I wouldve said "plan on running 93 dumbfuck"

fair enough.

But on the "need" for a given octane, you are wrong. Well, sort of.


You need however much octane you need to stave off detonation. That could be 2 octane or 200 octane. And there are things that contribute to the tendency to knock or not, timing being a HUGE factor. I know plenty of dipshits that in the quest to save money on gas had 87 octane tunes done on their 4 cyl turbos, and not a single one of them blew up, and in some cases in cars with more work done, still made more than stock power.

The more you up the volumetric efficiency of a motor, the more power it can make. The more power it CAN make, the less stress it will have at power levels below that. This translates to if it can maintain say 500hp without detonation at say 10PSI (just using numbers here, dont take them as anything specific) , by use of a given octane, then if you drop the boost to say 5PSI, cutting down say 50hp, the air charge temps in the cyl will be a good bit lower, and the knock threshold will be higher. Which means you dont need as high of an octane fuel to stay at the same "area" by the threshold. If 1 is nothing and 10 is knock, then lets use 9 as the area you would normally be in. If you lower the air charge temp in the cyl, then keeping the same octane will now put you at say 7. At which point you can get away with a little lower octane, that will bring you back to 9. The result? Making less power, on lower octane, with the exact same "danger" level as it had at higher power on higher octane.

Note that I am not using 1-10 and saying 9 as in "on the ragged edge" I am just using it as a scale, with 9 being the goal.

It would be like tuning it fo XXXhp on 93 octane, then raising the octane to 100octane, without raising the power levels via timing or boost (or leaning it down if you are feeling ballsy), all you accomplish is going lower away from the knock threshold. Now, if your ONLY goal is to get further away from knock, great. But there is a point where going conservative no longer makes things any safer, and only leaves power on the table. Which is why you would never NOT re-tune for 100 octane if you are currently tuned on 93. And when you re-tune, what happens? You make MORE POWER.

And finally reaching my point...

That works both ways. If you lower octane, and tune for that lower octane, its no less safe. Its just less powerful.

Unless you are a shitty tuner and are too daft to see knock on a datalog and pull timing (assuming AFRs are where they should be) In which case you blow the motor.




As for "you have never seen it" Well I dont doubt that. Because in all my years of doing this sort of thing, I am the only person I have ever seen say that they would overdo the shit out of a mod list, just to de-tune the hell out of it to a lower power level. Its just not something a sane person does normally. But I am not a normal sane person Why do I want to do it? Because fuck it. Why not.

WILL I actually do it? Probably not Ill more than likely throw these cams on, maybe do heads in a year or so, then never touch it again. But if I DO boost it, I already do have access to a dyno (2 of them actually), and know of a local guy that is supposed to be a good Mustang tuner, and may have him see what it will do on 87, just for shits and giggles.


I know its freaky, but I swear to you that I know it works. It may not make anywhere near 400, but you can absolutely make a boosted motor run just fine on 87 octane. Unless you are running some sort of engine management that wont let you pull enough timing, and even then, you could go a bit richer and drown the det a bit. (Obviously you dont want to go TOO rich and get into misfires or worse, borewash the cyl)

(I wont get into how dumb it is to spend hundreds on a custom tune to save what amounts to ~$235 a year, but that isnt why I was talking about doing it anyway)






Yes, I am totally aware of the fact that I just rambled through that entire post. If it reads like a mind dump, well, it is. Hopefully it makes some sense.

 

[Davenow]

Dave, I've done a couple cam swaps using heater hose as a wedge. Torqued the cap caps down to 89 inch-pounds per spec; and torqued NEW ttl cam sprocket bolts per specs as well.

Dont use a screwdriver with tape or rag; pieces can get torn off and left behind, or come loose altogether.

Yeah I already dug around and found some hose that will work