So I REALLY need the spring compressor for Hot Rod cam install?

[Davenow]

So I have Hot Rods on the way, and I have a helper lined up that has done SPR cams before. He used the wedge and compressor, but he had borrowed them, so he doesnt have them.


I really dont want to spend the money to rent them from Freedom, as that would really eat into my budget, if I dont HAVE to.



I have read posts where a lot of people have said you dont need the compressor. I know I can wedge the chain with some hose or whatever I can stuff down in there that wont move (I am thinking maybe a LONG screwdriver with a rag taped around it), and I will have the guy helping me hold the gear up, and the gear/chain will be marked.

SO, I have a few questions.


Do I still need to line the crank up the way it says in the instructions?
--- I would assume I would, right?


How do I go about getting the cam out, without the spring compressor?
Do I just slowly back all the bearing cap bolts out a couple turns each at a time till the tension is released?

Will the tension fully release before the bolts are all the way out? Or is the cam gonna pop up and out possibly damaging threads/whatever?

If there is tension even with the bolts almost completely backed out, how do I get the cam down in enough to start the bolts?

 

[klaw]

Reminds me of the saying:

"If you can't afford to do it properly, how the hell are you going to afford to do it over?"

1) Isn't there a mustang guy in Austin that could lend/rent you the compressor and wedge tool cheap?

2) The screwdriver/rag idea sounds like a terrible idea to me.

 

[JeremyH]

More important is the first three cam lobes positions this allows for the least amount of pressure on the followers when you swap the cam. Do one side at a time. Once the new cam is completely in then align the cam lobes properly on the other side. There is no reason to compress springs and remove followers prior to removing the cam for a nsr cam swap.


see post 30,31

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62653&highlight=cam+tech&page=2

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

The only "tools" you need are a strong back, patience, and 3ft. of garden hose. lol.

 

[Davenow]

Reminds me of the saying:

"If you can't afford to do it properly, how the hell are you going to afford to do it over?"

1) Isn't there a mustang guy in Austin that could lend/rent you the compressor and wedge tool cheap?

2) The screwdriver/rag idea sounds like a terrible idea to me.

I understand the "if you cant afford to do it properly" thing, but there are almost always multiple ways of "doing it properly" And I assure you that if you go into a dealership shop, the top techs almost never follow factory service manual procedures.


I have a mustang guy from Austin that has done SPR cams, but he rented the tool from a guy on another board. But, again, he was doing SPR cams. I am not, and like I said, I have read multiple posts of people saying you dont need the spring compressor for NSR cams. The problem is, none of them really say HOW you do it without them, or if they do, its vague at least to me.

Why does the screwdriver/rag sound like a terrible idea? Its essentially a home made wedge. The screwdriver I have in mind has an 18" shaft, so its plenty long, its a #2 phillips so the size is right, and I would wrap the rag tightly to about 3/4" diameter or so, then tape it up with duct tape so it cant come off, and doesnt shed fibers into the chain/front cover.





I probably should have said this to begin with, for a little background on me.



I am 38 and have worked as a dealership tech for Dodge, VW and Subaru. I have built a couple Subaru race cars, and built the motor that was in my 500whp Forester (guess how well Subaru motors hold up at 500whp. Ill give you a hint, not fucking long which is why I now own a Mustang lol, dont get me started on how burnt I am over that)

So I have a pretty strong mechanical background. I'm not some kid that is going to just go in hacking it up.

BUT, I consider myself a newbie with this, and I dont want to chance screwing something up because I didnt ask or thought I knew. I learned my lesson about thinking I know it all long ago.


However, I have next to no Ford modular motor or Mustang background. Well, I do have some Mustang background, but it was a 60s, it was an inline 6, and it was 20 years ago.




Lastly, Please dont take anything I say here as me argueing or having an attitude, I tend to come off that way over the internet. I really am a nice guy I swear lol. I just dont always "translate" over the internet that well.

Reading the link Lightblade just posted.

Will be following up on Ultra's comments in a minute

 

[Davenow]

The only "tools" you need are a strong back, patience, and 3ft. of garden hose. lol.

Strong back. I am assuming you are talking about getting the cam to stay in place holding it down while you pull the caps off, and pushing it down to get the caps started.


Correct?

 

[Davenow]

More important is the first three cam lobes positions this allows for the least amount of pressure on the followers when you swap the cam. Do one side at a time. Once the new cam is completely in then align the cam lobes properly on the other side. There is no reason to compress springs and remove followers prior to removing the cam for a nsr cam swap.


see post 30,31

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=62653&highlight=cam+tech&page=2

Ok so in post 30, you say

We did it the same way as the video except in the ford tech manual in shows you how to align the cam before removal so you have the least amount of pressure on the springs/followers, thats what we did. Worked fine

Im not 100% what you are saying here (forgive me, I have a slight learning disability when it comes to reading instructions, I learn FAR better seeing something done, which obviously isnt real helpful here unless someone has a video doing it without the compressor)

Are you saying the tech manual says how to do it without the compressor? Or are you saying that when its aligned like that, there is low enough pressure that you can then remove and install it without the compressor?


If so, what is the proceedure? WIll the pressure be gone before the cap bolts are all the way out? Or do I need to hold the cam down as I back them off? (Then I would assume I have to hold it down to get the bolts started?)


Sorry for asking so many likely stupid questions, because despite being a fairly smart guy, without being able to see it in person, I often need it laid out to me like you are talking to an idiot I guess at least I am aware of the problem. *shrug*

 

[Fallenauthority]

Strong back. I am assuming you are talking about getting the cam to stay in place holding it down while you pull the caps off, and pushing it down to get the caps started.


Correct?

No, because you will be hunched over under the hood for a few hours, it takes a toll on your back

 

[Greg Hazlett]

Absolutley not! There is a very good write up somewhere on here on how to do the NSR cam install and there are no special tools required!!!!!

It should take 3-4 hours tops for both cams and that is with taking your time and taking breaks.

If you back off the 5 (10 bolts) cam caps a quarter turn at a time in order the pressure is relieved equally.

Let me see if I can find the write up and link it to you.

http://home.comcast.net/~cookpaging/hammeron/cams/hotrodcams.html

Excellent write up, same write up I used for 5 cam swaps with zero issues.

 

[Davenow]

Ok cool. So I do or dont need to hold the cam down when I am backing them off and to get them started when putting it back on?

That is one of the big questions I am trying to get clear on.

 

[Davenow]

No, because you will be hunched over under the hood for a few hours, it takes a toll on your back

Ill pre-game with Advil then


Luckily I do have help coming. And will have a cold case of beer which should help stave off back pains.

 

[JeremyH]

Already linked it lol

Btw there is a video in that link a few posts back as well.


Sorry cant show you over the internet lol. Look at the picture at the orientation of the first 3 cam lobes. You turn the crank until the first 3 lobes look like the picture.

 

[JeremyH]

Ok cool. So I do or dont need to hold the cam down when I am backing them off and to get them started when putting it back on?

That is one of the big questions I am trying to get clear on.

No dont need to hold the cam. Slowly loosing the cam cap bolts equally will slowly relieve the remaining pressure on the springs and the cam will slowly come up as you loosen them.

By aligning the cam properly before removal is what makes for the least amount of pressure from the get go.


http://home.comcast.net/~cookpaging/hammeron/cams/hotrodcams.html

 

[Davenow]

No dont need to hold the cam. Slowly loosing the cam cap bolts equally will slowly relieve the remaining pressure on the springs and the cam will slowly come up as you loosen them.

By aligning the cam properly before removal is what makes for the least amount of pressure from the get go.


http://home.comcast.net/~cookpaging/hammeron/cams/hotrodcams.html

Awesome.


I think I am good to go now.

Yeah that is the eyeball searing link I was talking about. Im gonna just print it out in greyscale so I can look at it without sunglasses.

 

[Davenow]

I actually think I am going to break out the video camera and make a video of taking them out and putting them back in without the compressor, and jamming the chain without the tool. To help out people like me in the future.

I figure Ill do the first one, then after it has gone smoothly, Ill tape the second.

 

[outofcontrolreb]

Sounds awesome, can't wait to see your video. I'll be doing Hot Rod or Detriot Rockers cams here in a few months and if I can save some money by not buying the special tools.

 

[klaw]

I understand the "if you cant afford to do it properly" thing, but there are almost always multiple ways of "doing it properly" And I assure you that if you go into a dealership shop, the top techs almost never follow factory service manual procedures.

Precisely why I don't take my car to a dealership or any other shop for that matter. There are multiple ways of doing it but few (or one) ways of doing it properly. I would hazard a guess that most techs that take shortcuts have developed them after many repetitions of the tried and true.

Why does the screwdriver/rag sound like a terrible idea? Its essentially a home made wedge. The screwdriver I have in mind has an 18" shaft, so its plenty long, its a #2 phillips so the size is right, and I would wrap the rag tightly to about 3/4" diameter or so, then tape it up with duct tape so it cant come off, and doesnt shed fibers into the chain/front cover.

I would worry about it getting a bit oily and coming apart or caught on something and tearing. It might also be a bit spongy and not be able to provide enough lateral load to hold the chain in place. I have the wedge tool and the wedge material is pretty stiff.

.... I consider myself a newbie with this, and I dont want to chance screwing something up because I didnt ask or thought I knew.... I have next to no Ford modular motor background.

I would leave the shortcuts to the experienced. For the cost of a tool rental (how much can that be really?), you're willing to risk your expensive heads & cams?

Lastly, Please dont take anything I say here as me argueing or having an attitude, I tend to come off that way over the internet. I really am a nice guy I swear lol.

Haha - no worries - I know that these swaps can be done successfully with varying degrees of shortcuts - I tend to lean to the more conservative end of the spectrum because I hate wrecking shit. Good luck with your install!

 

[Davenow]

I went with Hot Rods because I want to basically do that 400+ package, which is the FRPP throttlebody, the FRPP intake manifold, the Hot Rod cams, and the FRPP heads. Which made 440hp (crank) at 7000rpm with LT headers and a CAI.

Which is plenty. Actually I should be a little over that with my EWP. I HIGHLY doubt at 440crank HP the 2mm difference from the GT500TB to the FRPP 62mm tb will be any sort of a restriction whatsoever.


Although, I MAY skip the heads and do a Vortech non intercooled centri. It works out to about the same cost if I buy the heads and pay to have them installed, or if I buy the centri and install it myself. But I really like the idea of all motor, and with my modest WHP goals, I would have to run like 3PSI on that centri to stay where I want to be. (400whp if I boost, 370-380 if I dont) I really dont want to go over 400whp, so with this intake/tb/cams/LTs, I think I would rather be 20-30whp lower, than have to deal with having to do a larger pulley on the centri and a custom tune to keep the power levels down. Ill just make whatever I can with the heads added to this setup and be happy with it. I dont need a rocket ship anymore. I am ALMOST happy with the power I have now, and I dont even have my LTs and cams installed! Hell man, I may do these 2 things and just call it a day, and move on to the other things I want to do (some dress up parts, and shed some weight)


I did just now drop 79.5lbs off the car by pulling the trunk floor panel, the spare/jack/tools and Mach 1000 sub out. Tomorrow, I am at a minimum going to pull the front swaybar off, which should get me to 100lbs total off the car. (I think the front bar with both end links is like 21lbs isnt it?) Then I am saving for a lighter battery and the steeda radiator support. Then in the spring, wheels/tires.

I am also looking to do the Saleen door sub upgrade. I am ALMOST satisfied with the stereo without the Mach 1000 subs in the trunk (they add more bass, but for the most part, its shitty muddy bass), and if I can tighten the front subs up just a touch, I should be fine with it. I really dont want the weight of a real stereo, and I dont want to dump a ton into the stereo anyway, and the Saleens are direct drop in plug and play.

 

[Davenow]

Precisely why I don't take my car to a dealership or any other shop for that matter. There are multiple ways of doing it but few (or one) ways of doing it properly. I would hazard a guess that most techs that take shortcuts have developed them after many repetitions of the tried and true. !

Right, and I would like to think that I have at least enough experience to look at a possible shortcut and determine if its a good idea or not. I know its not direct ford modular experience, but it should be enough to make the call of "that is stupid and may break things" or "that should work fine" But not having had the cams out before, the tension on the cams was a sticking point I needed to be clear on before I made the decision on the compressor.

I would worry about it getting a bit oily and coming apart or caught on something and tearing. It might also be a bit spongy and not be able to provide enough lateral load to hold the chain in place. I have the wedge tool and the wedge material is pretty stiff.

Its gonna be wrapped in duct tape. Its not gonna come apart, that stuff holds submerged in oil (as long as it was put on NOT covered in oil to begin with) And its not like it needs to be held with wrath of God level force. It just needs to not move. Plus with my helper or myself holding the cam gear up and tight, it should be fine. I am confident of that. If it seems shady IN THE LEAST when I am going through it, I will find another way, maybe suck it up and chop a section out of my garden hose or something.

I would leave the shortcuts to the experienced. For the cost of a tool rental (how much can that be really?), you're willing to risk your expensive heads & cams?



!

Like I said, I have the experience to take shortcuts. BUT, with it not being direct modular experience (beyond my intake manifold and valve cover and EWP swaps) I wanted to learn ahead of time exactly what the project entails, since the statement of saying "I have the experience" is a relative thing, not being ford and all. I really dont feel like I am going to be risking them. I know enough to know if it slips, to pull the cover and time the motor. (or pack it up in a box, say fuck it and send it on a flatbed to the shop and let them deal with it)

Good luck with your install!

Thanks man

 

[Greg Hazlett]

If you are serious about going FI don't get the HR's or the "noise makers" cams; to get the old school sound you want the LSA will not work well with FI. I know I am going to open up the can or worms that has been discussed before but my recommendation is to either invest in FI friendly cams vice the HR's and do it right the first time....can the HR's work with FI? Yes. Are they optimal? No.

As far as the comments about cutting corners...well...my repsonse to that is the shortcuts are tried and true and they work...period.