Stall converter installed...a few questions

[redfirepearlgt]

Got the Circle D stage III 2C 258mm stall converter in the car last Friday. Driving it I notice some oddities (with respect to the factory converter) aside from the slightly higher RPM at take off which is to be expected. This is my first experience with a TCC style converter that is also computer shifted unlike old reliable C6's that you just throw a 2500 stall into and go. So with that said I will try to describe what I am feeling in hopes that 6R80 guys running Circle D stalls can possibly clarify as expected, a concern, or even able to be tuned out in the trans control portion of the custom tune.

The trans (and car) has 15000 miles on it. The transfluid was fine when we inspected it during the swap. Just topped off with refresh replace what was left in the old converter and the level verified. The setup is your basic 320 coyote supporting a 9-10 psi 2300 TVS making about 550 RWHP.

1.) Normal leave from a stop I notice that the 2-3 shift and converter lock up are more distinguishable after the trans temp is at temp than when the trans is under 80 degrees. It almost feels as if the trans is short shifting to 4th but the datalog clearly indicates its in 3rd. I know from the tuner we are locking the converter in second.

2.) There is a slight rise in RPM at shift point not felt with the factory converter. This is observed in the datalog I made of the car leaving from a stop. It's not flare like one would see when clutches are beginning to fail, just a slight raise in RPM just after the gear is commanded but just prior to the actual shift happening in the datalog.

3.) At cruising speed of 70mph (or other speeds that are steady) when letting off the throttle and then applying again this slight RPM surge is again felt (about 100 RPM) and then everything settles back in. This can also be seen in a second datalog I made at about 75 MPH.

I can provide these datalogs that can be viewed in excel or using livelink to anyone who would like to see them via PM.

Out of curiosity if you know a remote COYOTE tuner who actually does full tuning including the transmission in both drive, sport, and manual shift modes (mine is a 2014 6R80 with that stupid select-a-shift I hate) please also send me a PM on who did your tune. I may be ready to look elsewhere for someone who is as well versed in 6R80 shift strategy and tuning as they are on the engine side.

 

[RocketcarX]

The lock up is going to be much more noticeable, and the higher stall is going to soften the shifts when they happen under the stall. Even on a C6 with a legit high stall converter you would perceive this. The higher the stall point the softer the shifter will be under the stall RPM.
I have a GTO in the shop with a TH400 in it as well as my old school F250 with a C6 and ATI converter, both shift out with nearly imperceivable gear changes under the stall (think CVT) but will snap your neck on full throttle shifts.

 

[travelers]

Give Jon Lund a call or email him. They are doing some stuff with the 6R80 and the new 10 speeds.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Thanks guys. That helps a lot. I was concluding that with a lock up converter the shift firmness would be the same even with the higher stall speed. What you are saying makes sense. I haven't had a chance to get to the track yet. The track has been trying to open since 3/17 but with this goofy spring (we're calling it "SPRINTER") we have yet to have a Friday or Saturday since 3/17 that they could actually open.


I may give Lund a call if they will at least give me any indication if they do more than touch up WOT shift points on a stall converter install. I was not aware that they had a direct line for customers. I assumed that all of their tech/sales inquiries had to go through one of their distributors. I'll check with Finishline since they deal with Lund and my current tuner and see what I can find out.

Appreciate all of the feed back more than you guys may realize. Now if I could only learn to type. I just noticed I typed 320 rather than 302 LOL! among others.

 

[Sky Render]

...mine is a 2014 6R80 with that stupid select-a-shift I hate...

You're crazy; I wish my '11 had the sport and manual modes. Want to trade transmissions?

In all seriousness, I've been considering doing a very similar build (in terms of mild blower and stall converter), so please let me know what you find out.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

You're crazy; I wish my '11 had the sport and manual modes. Want to trade transmissions?

In all seriousness, I've been considering doing a very similar build (in terms of mild blower and stall converter), so please let me know what you find out.

Unfortunately my tuner doesn't do anything with the manual and sport modes. I may seek another source if I can find one that actually does and provides me teh suport my current tuner has. The nice thing about the 13/14 is that it doesn't require any manipulation to make a fourth gear pull on the dyno like the 11/12 does (some just make their pulls in 3rd). I personally miss my manual shifter which is why I would rather have teh 11/12 setup. At least that way there is some feeling of control and knowing what gear you are in. ON the select-a-shift setup you place the shifter into S which is then what Ford calls "SPORT" mode. IT simply shows "S" on the dash. Once you upshift or downshift with the clicker buttons it then goes into manual mode so you may have to down shift then upshift back to be in the gear you want.

I'm considering trading in on a GT500 at this point. Waiting to see if the bottom will drop out of the 13/14 GT500 market when the coveted and highly desired 19 GT500 arrives.

 

[Sky Render]

My '14 Fusion is exactly like that, and I flipping love it. At least on my Fusion, Sport mode basically keeps it above 2,500 RPM at all times, so instant boost.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

My '14 Fusion is exactly like that, and I flipping love it. At least on my Fusion, Sport mode basically keeps it above 2,500 RPM at all times, so instant boost.

I'll keep that in mind when ram rodding my wife's 14 Fusion 2.0 ecoboost.

 

[46addict]

The lock up is going to be much more noticeable, and the higher stall is going to soften the shifts when they happen under the stall. Even on a C6 with a legit high stall converter you would perceive this. The higher the stall point the softer the shifter will be under the stall RPM.
I have a GTO in the shop with a TH400 in it as well as my old school F250 with a C6 and ATI converter, both shift out with nearly imperceivable gear changes under the stall (think CVT) but will snap your neck on full throttle shifts.

I have never driven a stalled automatic so I'm trying to imagine this in my head. If the engine cruises in an overdrive gear, under the stall RPM, is this going to overheat the trans fluid? Can a lockup converter remedy this situation?

 

[RocketcarX]

I have never driven a stalled automatic so I'm trying to imagine this in my head. If the engine cruises in an overdrive gear, under the stall RPM, is this going to overheat the trans fluid? Can a lockup converter remedy this situation?

Lock up is exactly what remedies the heat issues. However a good converter for the street will be “tight” enough to only stall under a high throttle load. So cruising even without lock up is close the RPM you would see with a stock converter

 

[46addict]

Lock up is exactly what remedies the heat issues. However a good converter for the street will be “right” enough to only stall under a high throttle load. So cruising even without lock up is close the RPM you would see with a stock converter

And this is where rear end gear selection comes into play?

 

[bunits19714]

you say the tuner is locking the converter in second? is this at wot- how did you data log this on the street? I am also assuming the trans fluid level is spot on- (I know you said it is was verified) that short shift to 4th is probably the converter locking up. Any tire slip messes with the transmission with shifting early. I do not think you will find a TUNER that tunes in all 3 modes it is kind of pointless- manual is manual and you will over rev it every time at wot. let the computer and the tuner get your trans right , they should be able to have a nice drivability and then a monster at wot .You have one of the easier combo's to tune the tvs & 6r80 are a dream team. I think you really should of saved the $ and just pullied down and rear gear swapped to 3.55's . the tvs makes SO much low end a converter isn't needed- I have friends running in the 8's on the stock converter. they run them 100 percent unlocked till 6 gear(street driving)(and just started locking it at the track to lower rpm and slip(4th gear) gives you some flash in the stock converter- You cant do this with a aftermarket stall at some point you need to lock it.

I just went back to a circle d again this winter as well and am starting the tuning process as well/ again. Mine is nasty with the converter it is almost to much for the street.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

you say the tuner is locking the converter in second? is this at wot- how did you data log this on the street? I am also assuming the trans fluid level is spot on- (I know you said it is was verified) that short shift to 4th is probably the converter locking up. Any tire slip messes with the transmission with shifting early. I do not think you will find a TUNER that tunes in all 3 modes it is kind of pointless- manual is manual and you will over rev it every time at wot. let the computer and the tuner get your trans right , they should be able to have a nice drivability and then a monster at wot .You have one of the easier combo's to tune the tvs & 6r80 are a dream team. I think you really should of saved the $ and just pullied down and rear gear swapped to 3.55's . the tvs makes SO much low end a converter isn't needed- I have friends running in the 8's on the stock converter. they run them 100 percent unlocked till 6 gear(street driving)(and just started locking it at the track to lower rpm and slip(4th gear) gives you some flash in the stock converter- You cant do this with a aftermarket stall at some point you need to lock it.

I just went back to a circle d again this winter as well and am starting the tuning process as well/ again. Mine is nasty with the converter it is almost to much for the street.

I kicked around gearing down. Talked to my local guys and my tuner about re-gearing. The consensus was to go to the converter I chose on all accounts and keep the 3.15 because of the torque the PD setup makes down low. Had I been running a centri I would have looked at a 3C or 4C. It's all just getting to learn how it feels and what is normal for a stall converter.

This is my first auto with any modifications. In the past I am used to putting in an Exedy Mach 500 stage III, and a Centerforce dual friction and feeling the immediate harder engagement and the other wonderful things that come with a performance clutch/flywheel upgrade (though at the cost of a slightly heavier pedal). I keep forgetting that I didn't do a clutch upgrade here I did a stall converter so things will be different.

I am getting ready to pulley down to a 79mm from an 82 and update the 47# FI's to DW 95# (1000cc) FI's. Hope to pick up a few staying on 93. The DW95's are pretty reliable for tuning at idle and I like the fact that there is plenty of D.C. left if I over rev. They also give me some room to consider E85 down the road if I decide to upgrade the fuel system. The goal is 10's year round regardless of air. I'm tired of running 11.1X in bad air and then running 10.8x in good air. I hope to run 10.9 as a worst this year. We'll see what the MT ET Radial pro's can hold on a track that is virtually no prep on Friday night T/T's.

 

[RocketcarX]

And this is where rear end gear selection comes into play?

This is exactly where rear gear comes in. I always advise my customers to "start from the back". Gears, converter, then cams.
The steeper gears take the load off the converter and keep the engine in a happier place in regard to loading the converter and engine, or "lugging" them to be more specific. The more converter you run, the more gear you will need to keep the combo in that happy place when you are cruising.

 

[bunits19714]

Traction is definitely going to be a issue for you on a un/non prepped surface.

 

[Sky Render]

I thought that because of the way the A6 is geared, putting in steeper rear gears makes first and second almost worthless.

 

[RocketcarX]

I thought that because of the way the A6 is geared, putting in steeper rear gears makes first and second almost worthless.

My advice is general advice regarding higher stall converters and how to make the overall vehicle work, "worthless" can be overcome with the right traction however. Even a half step up in gear ratio could be enough to keep everything in check. Seeing as how this is a stock cam application and a fairly mild converter in a 6 speed auto the OP may very well be fine with factory gearing.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Traction is definitely going to be a issue for you on a un/non prepped surface.

I switched at the beginning of last year to a 275*60*15 radial pro over the 305/45/17 R series. With the factory converter the car left a little boggy but more consistent on the 275/50/15's which is why I was ready to try this for 2018. Everything pointed to being ready for this even on the poorly prepped track we have. So with that and a few more pony's dropping to the 79mm pulley (and adding some 95# injectors future possible E85 in years to come) it won't be too much for the track. If so the next step will be to try some bags in the rear drag springs that Summit sells or spend a little more money and upgrade the Lakewood 50/50's to some Vikings or QA1's.The best they do is spray the start line out to about the 60ft mark with a bug sprayer filled with prep. That's about it. No dragging, no brushing. A mop is handy for the oil and coolant spills and of course that pin head who wants to sit in the car with the AC running until he is ready to stage and then drips condensate all over the starting lane. I run with the slick cars so I always try to find a big wheel guy in the lanes and get right behind him if I can.