The Great Oil Debate

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Bruce, we use UOA's for more than teardowns in heavy machinery. There are a variety of things that are looked for that go more in depth than anyone would think of.


Also CAFE standards were developed by the government, how is that a conspiracy?

 

[BruceH]

What do you look for? I'd like to know.

The government conspiracy that I refer to is that that's why Ford specs 5w-20. I believe it's because of the motor clearances and requirements which have been derived from number crunching and other engineering processes, not for mpg reasons. It's not like every product they make is speced for 5w-20. At least it wasn't the last time I looked.

If 5w30 gives better protection then wouldn't it also have a higher mpg due to less friction?

The mod motors have a great reputation for longevity. This is the reason I've stuck with Ford specs on my motors. Our Honda Accords have also used 5w20 and that is another manufacturer who is known for having motors that run forever.

Bruce, we use UOA's for more than teardowns in heavy machinery. There are a variety of things that are looked for that go more in depth than anyone would think of.


Also CAFE standards were developed by the government, how is that a conspiracy?

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

UOA's are used to look for every metal, contaminants (dirt, fuel, soot, etc), even hose material in a specific compartment. If the metals are high, the oil and filters get changed and then another uoa is pulled in 50 hours. If a specific metal is found they know exactly which part the metal came from and its replaced. Replacing a worn/damaged part is cheaper than waiting for it to completely fail costing 100's of thousands dollars more. They lose money when the machine breaks, cheaper to fix a part when you find out its on its way out instead of waiting for it to break taking other parts with it.

 

[BruceH]

Heavy equipment is expensive. I'd imagine the one thing that gets your attention is bearing materials like copper, tin, Babbitt, or whatever is used for the bearings.

What would soot determine, blowby?

UOA's are used to look for every metal, contaminants (dirt, fuel, soot, etc), even hose material in a specific compartment. If the metals are high, the oil and filters get changed and then another uoa is pulled in 50 hours. If a specific metal is found they know exactly which part the metal came from and its replaced. Replacing a worn/damaged part is cheaper than waiting for it to completely fail costing 100's of thousands dollars more. They lose money when the machine breaks, cheaper to fix a part when you find out its on its way out instead of waiting for it to break taking other parts with it.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Soot could be from blowby, if found in the engine oil. If found in the coolant could be a blown head gasket or cracked head/block. We have millions of dollars tied up in UOA lab equipment and it makes our job easier.

Bruce here is some info for you. Since your an info guy, enjoy.

http://s7d2.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/C842738

 

[stkjock]

Bruce - SVTP has a long thread in the GT500 section with UOAs.

Here's mine from a while back.

 

[UltraKla$$ic]

^^^Not bad for oil and car with ZERO miles on it.....

 

[stkjock]

^^^Not bad for oil and car with ZERO miles on it.....

- I put more miles on mine in a year than you have on both of yours in 6...

 

[BruceH]

I've done the uoa thing before. Once I realized that I'm not using the data to decide on when to do a teardown it didn't make much sense to me. The Mustang is my only modified vehicle so it gets frequent changes vs factory specified for the other vehicles. Since I'm doing frequent oil changes tbn of oil in use isn't a big concern either.

I did a virgin oa and one uoa with the first built motor. When it was torn down everything looked good.

Is there any point where those participating in the uoa thread are going to use the data for bearing replacement?

Here's my virgin sample and that oil after a change. The break in oil was changed out and this was the first real broken in sample.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Bruce the purpose of a uoa is to keep you informed of what exactly is going on inside the engine. Wouldnt you want to know a part is failing before it completely fails?

 

[BruceH]

Did you read my posts? I'm aware of the benefits.

I'm wondering who has torn down their motor because of an abnormal uoa? Are you going to do it? If so at what level? Or, are you going to switch oil brands and hope it gets better?

Bruce the purpose of a uoa is to keep you informed of what exactly is going on inside the engine. Wouldnt you want to know a part is failing before it completely fails?

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Since im keeping a record of it and if the metals ever go really high im gonna investigate which components the metal came from. If it involves replacing parts to fix the problem then I will. Im not the type of person thats gonna wait for a complete failure to happen before I fix something.

 

[Kenaizer]

Did you read my posts? I'm aware of the benefits.

I'm wondering who has torn down their motor because of an abnormal uoa? Are you going to do it? If so at what level? Or, are you going to switch oil brands and hope it gets better?

At our trucking company, we had a 3rd party pay to replace the motor in one of our Kenworths because they had installed the wrong air filter when they serviced it and the monthly UOA showed that it was dusted.

 

[BruceH]

Since im keeping a record of it and if the metals ever go really high im gonna investigate which components the metal came from. If it involves replacing parts to fix the problem then I will. Im not the type of person thats gonna wait for a complete failure to happen before I fix something.

I'm not knocking the uoa. I'm just saying that once I realized I wasn't going to use the data for anything more than curiosity I stopped doing it. I hope it didn't come out as a waste for everyone because I'd have no way of knowing and it would just be opinion.

If I understood correctly one of the bearing materials is copper. I also use copper rtv extensively in my builds so I'd imagine some would leech out and skew the readings.

I'd hope that I'd notice a bearing going out by the sound but anything can happen. Since I change my oil every 3000 or so miles I'm quite sure the additives aren't used up and that would be the last justifiable reason for me to keep testing the oil. I wouldn't know what readings would show that the bearings were going. I'm talking about counts of materials.

If I ever keep a high horsepower setup long enough it will have scheduled teardowns depending on how I'm using it. It's part of the price for racing and having a high hp motor.

 

[stkjock]

The UOA thread was more to see what oil held up best more than anything else

 

[BruceH]

The UOA thread was more to see what oil held up best more than anything else

What do you go by? Tbn, wear metals, viscosity? Does anyone post the bearing type and composition or is it just generic comparisons?

I'd imagine that the bearings would make a noticeable difference on the uoa. Stock bearings are designed to not deform or embed particles while performance bearings are supposed to catch particles and deform to be easier on the components. I'd imagine that performance bearing motors would have higher bearing wear metal counts since the bearings are designed with frequent inspection and replacement in mind. Along the same lines I'd guess that stock bearing motors would have more crank composition metals in the mix.

It's all just a guess on my part, thinking out loud more or less. Ring type would probably affect it too.

Looking at your uoa I'd guess that you have performance bearings and stainless rings due to the copper, lead, and iron in the samples. Once again just a guess.

I wonder why they compared your motor to a stock GT500 motor for averages? I suppose they had to compare it to something. IIRC you have a very tricked out motor that was built by L&M.

 

[stkjock]

The goal was to look at TBN, viscosity break down and wear metals.

There was no analysis of different bearing types.

Not sure about the bearings, but IIRc yes stainless rings, the motor was also still pretty new on that UAO, maybe 3400 total miles and this was the first synth oil in the engine.

They didn't read my details about the motor so they compared to OEM. I have a revised one somewhere if u cared.

Yes, L&M short block, iron block, diamond pistons, total seal rings, Manley h beams and ARP studs

 

[BruceH]

If you felt like posting it I would find it interesting to see the trends. I'd imagine that if I had a L&M motor I'd be watching it very close too. That's a sizeable investment.

The goal was to look at TBN, viscosity break down and wear metals.

There was no analysis of different bearing types.

Not sure about the bearings, but IIRc yes stainless rings, the motor was also still pretty new on that UAO, maybe 3400 total miles and this was the first synth oil in the engine.

They didn't read my details about the motor so they compared to OEM. I have a revised one somewhere if u cared.

Yes, L&M short block, iron block, diamond pistons, total seal rings, Manley h beams and ARP studs

 

[stkjock]

Bruce - its just revised comments based on added info I reminded them of. It's not a second in a series. I forgot to take a sample on the second change as I was in a hurry. It's only on its third fill at this point. I typically put less than 2500 miles a year on it.

 

[Macman45]

Got back Used Oil Analysis with really high Iron

I did a Blackstone Labs UOA on my 09 GT after 4,500 miles on the oil. The iron count was 130 ppm, normal averages are 20. There was also high Chromium, Potassium and Sodium, which they said could be coolant. Anyone seen this? The car runs great, doesn't burn oil or leak coolant! Thanks