Timing indecision

[lwarrior1016]

Personally, I do not like those tensioners. I always use iron tensioners that do not use a gasket. But that’s a whole different discussion.

Holding the cam at the rear will not put any kind of undo stress on the cam itself.

 

[Samos3]

I think I read somewhere that you can use the Felpro gasket with the factory tensioner.

This thread...which you may have already read...:

Thread 'Oil Pan and Engine Advice' https://www.s197forum.com/threads/oil-pan-and-engine-advice.153046/

 

[GriffX]

AFAIK the last revision is non-ratcheting, because the ratchets could lead to high chain wear.

Since 15 years the engine chains are a source of so many problems. I would like to have a belt. Yes, you change them but no strange noises, slowly timing changes, broken chain guides, tensioners .....

 

[Kev555]

Just another quick question as well I forgot to ask a two weeks ago before I put the finishing touches to the timing end. The engineering place that done the work to the heads reused the bolts that hold camshaft in place. I believe they are TTY? Is it crucial to use new bolts? I did double check that they were torqued to the right ford spec.

 

[Kev555]

AFAIK the last revision is non-ratcheting, because the ratchets could lead to high chain wear.

Since 15 years the engine chains are a source of so many problems. I would like to have a belt. Yes, you change them but no strange noises, slowly timing changes, broken chain guides, tensioners .....

Lol Fords answer was the wet belt and look where thats heading.
I see a lot of debates about the new revised and old ratchet tensioners. I know Ford have been using the ratchet type for years with very little timing failures I witnessed or heard of. I have changed timing chains on a couple of 04 to 06 diesel transits back about 10 years ago. I see the point in them holding tension on the chain until the oil pressurises the system especially if somebody tries to tow start them but the two transits I worked on had a failed ratchet on one tensioner in each vehicle. I suspect as discussed in a lot of places that Ratchet tensioners are probably responsible for premature guide wear and chain stretching but were effective in taking the slap out of the chain on the starting cycle especially in cold weather climates.

 

[lwarrior1016]

Lol Fords answer was the wet belt and look where thats heading.
I see a lot of debates about the new revised and old ratchet tensioners. I know Ford have been using the ratchet type for years with very little timing failures I witnessed or heard of. I have changed timing chains on a couple of 04 to 06 diesel transits back about 10 years ago. I see the point in them holding tension on the chain until the oil pressurises the system especially if somebody tries to tow start them but the two transits I worked on had a failed ratchet on one tensioner in each vehicle. I suspect as discussed in a lot of places that Ratchet tensioners are probably responsible for premature guide wear and chain stretching but were effective in taking the slap out of the chain on the starting cycle especially in cold weather climates.

Your cam cap bolts are fine. My car has 230k+ miles and I just reused those bolts. Always change the phaser bolts but the cam cap bolts are fine.

FYI, the coyote engine uses an iron tensioners with no gasket, and the stock high performance tensioners still use the ratchet.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Just another quick question as well I forgot to ask a two weeks ago before I put the finishing touches to the timing end. The engineering place that done the work to the heads reused the bolts that hold camshaft in place. I believe they are TTY? Is it crucial to use new bolts? I did double check that they were torqued to the right ford spec.

If you're referring to the cam tower cap bolts, they can be reused so no problem there. However the cam phaser bolts are TTY and if you reuse those, you could be in a whole world of pain afterwards 'cause if the bolt fails and the phaser falls off, it's goodbye engine.

Personally, I do not like those tensioners. I always use iron tensioners that do not use a gasket. But that’s a whole different discussion.

There are advantages and disadvantages to either. The stock plastic tensioners would be absolutely fine when used with Felpro gaskets. They go well beyond 100k miles and even reach 150+k miles without any issues. I reckon the life of the tensioner gaskets is extended if you use synthetic oil and change it at the recommended intervals.
I can understand why some would prefer the ratcheting iron tensioners and in the 4.6 2V, they've been pretty much bulletproof. However if they do fail, a broken guide and a rattling chain would be the result.

 

[Kev555]

Phew thats a relief Warrior, thanks for info as I didn't want to hand out another 200 quid for a handful of bolts. Why did they change the tensioner for the 4.6 if they still use them on coyotes?

 

[Kev555]

If you're referring to the cam tower cap bolts, they can be reused so no problem there. However the cam phaser bolts are TTY and if you reuse those, you could be in a whole world of pain afterwards 'cause if the bolt fails and the phaser falls off, it's goodbye engine.


There are advantages and disadvantages to either. The stock plastic tensioners would be absolutely fine when used with Felpro gaskets. They go well beyond 100k miles and even reach 150+k miles without any issues. I reckon the life of the tensioner gaskets is extended if you use synthetic oil and change it at the recommended intervals.
I can understand why some would prefer the ratcheting iron tensioners and in the 4.6 2V, they've been pretty much bulletproof. However if they do fail, a broken guide and a rattling chain would be the result.

Thankfully the ford timing kit comes with new phaser bolts so at least I didn't have to hunt about for them Dino. Do you think I should get fel pro gaskets for them as insurance for the long term?

 

[lwarrior1016]

If you're referring to the cam tower cap bolts, they can be reused so no problem there. However the cam phaser bolts are TTY and if you reuse those, you could be in a whole world of pain afterwards 'cause if the bolt fails and the phaser falls off, it's goodbye engine.


There are advantages and disadvantages to either. The stock plastic tensioners would be absolutely fine when used with Felpro gaskets. They go well beyond 100k miles and even reach 150+k miles without any issues. I reckon the life of the tensioner gaskets is extended if you use synthetic oil and change it at the recommended intervals.
I can understand why some would prefer the ratcheting iron tensioners and in the 4.6 2V, they've been pretty much bulletproof. However if they do fail, a broken guide and a rattling chain would be the result.

I’ve seen a lot more broken chain guides on 3v’s than I have on 2v or 4v engines though. I know in part, it’s because of the entire guide being plastic instead of steel backed, but the plastic tensioners definitely fail. Like you said though, it has to do with the gaskets blowing out though.

 

[Kev555]

Phew thats a relief Warrior, thanks for info as I didn't want to hand out another 200 quid for a handful of bolts. Why did they change the tensioner for the 4.6 if they still use them on coyotes?

Sorry, neglected to mention that the original tensioner on mine is the same plastic type as in the newly supplied kit. It has done 105k and I think is all the original kit. I must recheck them again but when I was dismantling the engine one felt easier to compress than the other. My guides were all in good shape and showed next to no wear. My engine was the cleanest I've ever seen for the mileage inside, absolutely no gunk or deposits anywhere in the engine I can only put that down to being regularly serviced or are V8,s different in cleanliness to other 4 or 6 pot engines?

 

[GriffX]

Lol Fords answer was the wet belt and look where thats heading.

The 3 cylinder drowned in oil belt is ridicules. They made it as a sacrifice to the church of global warming.

The new Coyote of the S650 has no steel cylinder sleeves, so it will fail without any rebuild option.

 

[Kev555]

Yes a complete disaster but only combined with Ford's service intervals, they can last well with more frequent oil changes.

 

[lwarrior1016]

The 3 cylinder drowned in oil belt is ridicules. They made it as a sacrifice to the church of global warming.

The new Coyote of the S650 has no steel cylinder sleeves, so it will fail without any rebuild option.

Coyote hasn’t has steel sleeves since 2018. The gen 3 & 4 coyote have coated bores. The block has to be sleeved if there is a failure.

 

[Kev555]

LOL I really have got to get back into real life and get my head out of this frigging engine. I enjoyed every minute of it even though it was caused by a stupid faulty part and then I fell down the rabbit hole of making it all good while I was there. Thanks to all you guys I'm nearly there regardless of how it turns out. Everything else I planned to do this last two months is still on hold never mind my bank account taking a walloping.

 

[GriffX]

Coyote hasn’t has steel sleeves since 2018. The gen 3 & 4 coyote have coated bores. The block has to be sleeved if there is a failure.

I thought only Gen 4, thanks. If you can pay (and find) a shop to sleeve the block. Like teflon coated rubber timing belt - you should not own a car anymore.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Like teflon coated rubber timing belt - you should not own a car anymore.

You CAN still own a car but just not a modern one that has planned obsolescence built into it. Examples of planned obsolescence are:

1. "Wet" rubber timing belt.
2. Plastic water pump housing.
3. Plastic thermostat housing.
4. Water pump placed inside crankcase.
5. Coated cylinders that can't be rebored.
6. Electronically controlled thermostat.
7. Plastic oil pans.
8. Sealed for life transmissions.
9. Automatic transmissions with dry dual clutches.

Basically if the car comes with a 100k mile warranty, it's designed to have a major failure (engine or transmission) at 101-120k miles so the owner can foot the repair bill. By then the car will probably be about 10 years old and it'll be mechanically totaled because the repair cost will exceed the value of the car.
This is why more people prefer to lease cars for up to 5 years and then trade them back in for another new model so they're not stuck with a car that's heavily deprecated with the prospect of big repair bills just around the corner.
The end result is that fewer cars will last much beyond 10 years and they'll be thrown away like old computers and smartphones. Not many cars produced today will still be around in 20 years.

 

[GriffX]

10. Wastegates inside the turbo housing
11. weak timing chain and components

...my personal prediction, you are not allowed to drive a car in 20 years, or not rich enough

 

[Kev555]

You CAN still own a car but just not a modern one that has planned obsolescence built into it. Examples of planned obsolescence are:

1. "Wet" rubber timing belt.
2. Plastic water pump housing.
3. Plastic thermostat housing.
4. Water pump placed inside crankcase.
5. Coated cylinders that can't be rebored.
6. Electronically controlled thermostat.
7. Plastic oil pans.
8. Sealed for life transmissions.
9. Automatic transmissions with dry dual clutches.

Basically if the car comes with a 100k mile warranty, it's designed to have a major failure (engine or transmission) at 101-120k miles so the owner can foot the repair bill. By then the car will probably be about 10 years old and it'll be mechanically totaled because the repair cost will exceed the value of the car.
This is why more people prefer to lease cars for up to 5 years and then trade them back in for another new model so they're not stuck with a car that's heavily deprecated with the prospect of big repair bills just around the corner.
The end result is that fewer cars will last much beyond 10 years and they'll be thrown away like old computers and smartphones. Not many cars produced today will still be around in 20 years.

Then there's the emissions equipment burden on European Diesel car owners too Dino, something designed to failure long before 100k miles. These parts demand astronomical replacement prices in a lot of cases if EGR, add blue or DPF fails sometimes dealer servicing/repairs being the only option. I will only ever have a petrol family car around the house now. I have and l200 pickup that dumps diesel into the engine oil when a DPF Regen doesn't take place especially on short journeys. How's that for design? I have to do an oil and filter change it every 4000 miles on short journeys if I don't do a stationary Regen which takes 25 mins every 5-600 miles.

 

[brasil]

@ Kev555

my wife is from Brasil... there nearly all of the Diesel vehicles. "lost " their DPF. including the AGR Valve ( EGR in English ) .