Will there will be a run on S197 cars shortly?

tjm73

of Omicron Persei 8
S197 Team Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2010
Posts
12,092
Reaction score
1,638
Location
Rush, NY
Superior - yes, but not necessarily by "light years". "Light years" relative to the Fox chassis, perhaps.

Having owned various Foxbodies for most of my driving life (including one right now), it wouldn't take much of a "light year" to be massively better. LOL!! Foxbodies are pretty raw. I read a description once calling the m the best 7/8 finished beer car on wheels. Has always amused me.
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
Having owned various Foxbodies for most of my driving life (including one right now), it wouldn't take much of a "light year" to be massively better. LOL!! Foxbodies are pretty raw. I read a description once calling the m the best 7/8 finished beer car on wheels. Has always amused me.
I think when you're coming from the corner-carver side of the hobby, that puts the S197 squarely in the sweet spot between under-developed and over-refined. I remember getting involved in chassis & suspension discussions back in the early 2000s (Corral, Corner-Carvers) when the best we had was the SN95/New Edge evolution of the Fox.

I was driving a 1979 Chevy Malibu at the time, which used a very similar triangulated 4-link rear suspension to the Fox and a comparably camber-challenged front suspension. I guess how ever well we got them to them work was more in spite of what we had to work with than because of it.


Norm
 

AHaze

Member
Joined
Dec 31, 2019
Posts
304
Reaction score
170
Location
Edmonton, AB
With the arrival of the S550 the Mustang transformed into a true sports car from a rough and tumble street fighting muscle car. Which is not a bad thing. It's just a point where the car had a major change in focus.
This is just my opinion (one I know at least a few other folks share) but sports cars don't weigh 3700 lbs. I would call the S550 a performance focused Grand Tourer. Of course the GT350 really blurs that line but is still a GT in my books.
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
This is just my opinion (one I know at least a few other folks share) but sports cars don't weigh 3700 lbs. I would call the S550 a performance focused Grand Tourer. Of course the GT350 really blurs that line but is still a GT in my books.
Agreed.

The S550's change in focus has always seemed to me to be more about "features", technology, and ever-more electronic "driver assistances" . . . with a few crumbs thrown in the performance directions.


Norm
 

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,211
Reaction score
1,093
Superior - yes, but not necessarily by "light years". "Light years" relative to the Fox chassis, perhaps.

IRS is only superior when it is superior on its own merit, not "IRS has to be better simply because it's IRS". The S550's integral-link rear suspension still wheel-hops fairly easily, and the differential fluid is particularly susceptible to overheating in sustained hard driving unless efforts are taken to improve heat rejection from the differential housing.


Norm
The white line watts link + eaton tru-trac will transform the S197. Ample performance for most purposes. That, plus the usual suspension + brake upgrades, etc.
 
Last edited:

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
I have a fair idea how helical-style differentials can improve the driving experience (basically becoming 'open' around neutral throttle, for less understeer on turn-in).

But I still haven't been able to pin down where a Watts link would have some advantages. The roll steer differences aren't enough to explain it, and if you're serious enough about lowering the rear suspension's geo-RC that can be done with a PHB as well.

Yes, I'm aware of the symmetry-asymmetry thing in two wheel bump mode. I'm somewhat less sure that one wheel bump and one wheel bump combined with roll wants the same thing.


Norm
 

06 T-RED S/C GT

forum member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Posts
2,270
Reaction score
369
Location
Carnegie, PA
The S550 is absolutely a superior car. I'll argue the S197 (at least when packing over 400 HP) is a superior driving experience. I want my Mustang to be a blatantly different experience to my other cars and in some ways, that difference comes from an inferiority. My wife's Audi is almost as fast as my Mustang and is technically superior in pretty much every way. I don't think many of us would call that car "fun to drive" though. The S550 is the point in the Mustang timeline where the driving experience gap between it and a "normal" car became too narrow for my liking.

Despite the S550 as being a superior car over the previous S197 model. I have to agree the driving experience does in fact suffer and is less fun to drive compared to the S197 cars. The S550 IMO has evolved significantly from it's original pony car roots into more of a true sports car that's also more refined. IMHO, the S197 cars were the last of the raw/no frills Mustangs that were affordable for the masses, fun to drive and simple to modify. What I like most about the S197 cars, is they're a modern interpretation of the original 65-70 fastback models that personally were the most appealing Mustangs ever as far as overall styling is concerned. Anyhow, just saying.

With the arrival of the S550 the Mustang transformed into a true sports car from a rough and tumble street fighting muscle car. Which is not a bad thing. It's just a point where the car had a major change in focus.

IMO the change in focus was due to expanding the market for the Mustang globally and therefore more appealing towards those in the European, South American and Asian markets looking for alternatives to higher priced sports cars/sport sedans, such as Audi, Porsche, Jaguar and BMW.

Superior - yes, but not necessarily by "light years". "Light years" relative to the Fox chassis, perhaps.

IRS is only superior when it is superior on its own merit, not "IRS has to be better simply because it's IRS". The S550's integral-link rear suspension still wheel-hops fairly easily, and the differential fluid is particularly susceptible to overheating in sustained hard driving unless efforts are taken to improve heat rejection from the differential housing.


Norm

I wasn't just referring to IRS alone, but rather the entire chassis platform, including front and rear suspension and improved quality interior materials. However, as mentioned above, the S550 has evolved more into a true sports car and significantly away from the Mustang's original pony car roots. IMHO, the S197 cars were the last breed of Mustang that was both affordable for the masses and remained true to it's original pony car heritage. That being said, the S197 has all the modern bells and whistles to suit my individual needs and provides the retro styling of the 1st gen 65-70 fastback models along with that raw/no frills, pony car driving experience that you just can't get from a true modern sports car :shrug:
 
Last edited:

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,211
Reaction score
1,093
Stick axle cars would be a non starter in Europe..hence the IRS. That, plus europeans are all driving audi, porshce, bmw, jag etc. Steering wheel on right side in the UK, and Japan, and several other countries. The S550 was designed to be built with either left or right side drive, IRS. IE: world wide platform...with loads of power. I doubt you will see too many S550 mustangs in Europe with blower's added, but I may be wrong.
 

06 T-RED S/C GT

forum member
Joined
Jan 8, 2016
Posts
2,270
Reaction score
369
Location
Carnegie, PA
This is just my opinion (one I know at least a few other folks share) but sports cars don't weigh 3700 lbs. I would call the S550 a performance focused Grand Tourer. Of course the GT350 really blurs that line but is still a GT in my books.
The 2020-21 C8 Corvette has a curb weight of 3,535 to 3,637lbs. just a mere 63lbs. shy of 3700lbs. but is still nevertheless considered a sports car. Although I wouldn't necessarily consider the S550 as a true sports car, it's been evolving in that direction compared to the S197 cars which IMO were the last to incorporate the Mustang's original pony car roots.
 

Dino Dino Bambino

I have a red car
Joined
Aug 11, 2014
Posts
3,880
Reaction score
1,751
Location
Cyprus
This is just my opinion (one I know at least a few other folks share) but sports cars don't weigh 3700 lbs. I would call the S550 a performance focused Grand Tourer. Of course the GT350 really blurs that line but is still a GT in my books.

A curb weight of 3700lb would be considered fairly average these days. There are several "sports cars" that weigh in at 4000+lb, but then they also have 500+hp. I agree that they should really be called powerful grand tourers (GT cars).
IMO a true sports car should be light and nimble. If it's light enough, it can still have blistering acceleration with "only" 300hp.
At ~3500lb, the S197 3V GT wasn't light enough to be proper sports car, 300hp was barely adequate to make it a muscle car, and a solid rear axle was crude technology in an era of more sophisticated independent rear wheel drive systems, but none of that really matters. You can drive it and fantasize about being a movie hero such as Steve McQueen (Bullitt), Nicolas Cage (GISS), or Keanu Reeves (John Wick) behind the wheel.
It was conceived to capture the soul of Gen 1 '65-'70 Mustangs in a more modern chassis equipped with enough creature comforts to make daily driving a pleasure, while the 4.6 3V had the soundtrack to plaster a big grin on your face when you hit the gas. In that respect, Ford nailed it. As always, Ford deliberately underdeveloped certain aspects of the car to keep the sticker price down, and the aftermarket was only too happy to develop a plethora of parts for owners to conceive their own masterpiece from a blank canvas. You could even decide which movie hero you wanted to be and modify the car accordingly.
 

LarryJM

Resident Fuktard
Joined
Jul 15, 2018
Posts
1,008
Reaction score
151
My 2014 GT feels on the street more in line to a 69 440/6 and a Z28 combo. Lots of power down low and will twist to the moon. The S550 are not twice as good as the S197s. Although the Base Brakes really do suck. I see lots of Gen 1s with between 50,000 to 100,000 miles in junkyards with front end damage. Most are base units. Stuck back brakes seem to be the norm with these.
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
Despite the S550 as being a superior car over the previous S197 model. I have to agree the driving experience does in fact suffer and is less fun to drive compared to the S197 cars. The S550 IMO has evolved significantly from it's original pony car roots into more of true sports car that's also more refined. IMHO, the S197 cars were the last of the raw/no frills Mustangs that were affordable for the masses, fun to drive and simple to modify. What I like most about the S197 cars, is they're a modern interpretation of the original 65-70 fastback models that personally were the most appealing Mustangs ever as far as overall styling is concerned.
I know what you're trying to say here, and for the most part I agree. What I do have to note is that 3500 lbs runs contrary to any notion of a true sports car, which for me has always been a minimalist lightweight machine whose handling would be described as 'nimble' rather than 'ponderous' or even the milder description 'deliberate'. As good as the S197 is for putting up the numbers, it's still in the 'deliberate' category compared to Miatas, BRZs, and the traditional sports roadsters of the past.


I wasn't just referring to IRS alone, but rather the entire chassis platform, including front and rear suspension and improved quality interior materials. However, as mentioned above, the S550 has evolved more into a true sports car and significantly away from the Mustang's original pony car roots. IMHO, the S197 cars were the last breed of Mustang that was both affordable for the masses and remained true to it's original pony car heritage.
It was just easier to deal with that one particular aspect than try to chase down information on things like chassis stiffness.

You'll probably have to excuse me for not even thinking about things like "improved quality interior materials" and "modern bells and whistles", because I tend to hardly even notice the first and I don't have any need for the second. There's stuff on my '08 that I've never even peeked at, and probably a ton of stuff on the WRX that I'll never know exists there.


raw/no frills, pony car driving experience
Works for me.


Norm
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
The 2020-21 C8 Corvette has a curb weight of 3,535 to 3,637lbs. just a mere 63lbs. shy of 3700lbs. but is still nevertheless considered a sports car. Although I wouldn't necessarily consider the S550 as a true sports car, it's been evolving in that direction compared to the S197 cars which IMO were the last to incorporate the Mustang's original pony car roots.
In traditional terms, the C8 has a better-than-decent claim on 'Exotic' status. At least 'near-exotic' even by current standards.


Norm
 

RED09GT

Equal Opportunity Offender
S197 Team Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2009
Posts
2,630
Reaction score
488
Location
Kelowna, B.C. Canada
I have a very tech-laden Explorer ST and the only tech part that I am really impressed with is the adaptive cruise control when I am stuck moving slowly behind traffic. I find the tech stuff is better at taking your mind off of driving than it is for engaging the driver.
When I hop into my SVT focus or my mustang, I don't miss any of that tech.
 

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,211
Reaction score
1,093
Meanwhile, a Mazda miata weighs 2200-2400 lbs. And a F1 car weighs 702 kg (1544 lbs) at the end of the race.
 
Last edited:

Pentalab

forum member
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Posts
5,211
Reaction score
1,093
I have a fair idea how helical-style differentials can improve the driving experience (basically becoming 'open' around neutral throttle, for less understeer on turn-in).

But I still haven't been able to pin down where a Watts link would have some advantages. The roll steer differences aren't enough to explain it, and if you're serious enough about lowering the rear suspension's geo-RC that can be done with a PHB as well.

Yes, I'm aware of the symmetry-asymmetry thing in two wheel bump mode. I'm somewhat less sure that one wheel bump and one wheel bump combined with roll wants the same thing.


Norm
I swapped from a BMR adjustable PHB to the WL Watts link. (eaton tru-trac installed the same day as the watts link). Car was already lowered 1.25" on the rear, and 1" on the front. Hitting bumps flying around corners is where I noticed the difference.
 

Norm Peterson

corner barstool sitter
Joined
Feb 5, 2011
Posts
3,615
Reaction score
316
Location
RIP - You will be missed
I swapped from a BMR adjustable PHB to the WL Watts link. (eaton tru-trac installed the same day as the watts link). Car was already lowered 1.25" on the rear, and 1" on the front. Hitting bumps flying around corners is where I noticed the difference.
What, exactly, did you notice?


I'm still going to have to try to relate that to the rest of the suspension geometry - which is probably going to be sensitive to ride height and spring/bar stiffnesses.


Norm
 

stevbd

forum member
Joined
Jun 24, 2016
Posts
151
Reaction score
26
To me the s197 glass roof is a bigger deal than the s550 IRS or interior materials.

I think the s197 as perceived through your butt and your hands actually feels lighter than it is, especially with some basic mods. But visually, because you are sitting down low and with a long hood, it feels bigger than it really is. I don't like that feeling of sitting in a hole and the s550 - with its lower roof line, longer flatter hood, wider body, and no glass roof, to me makes the whole sensation worse.
 

MrAwesome987

forum member
Joined
Mar 6, 2019
Posts
936
Reaction score
292
Location
Upstate SC
To me the s197 glass roof is a bigger deal than the s550 IRS or interior materials.

I think the s197 as perceived through your butt and your hands actually feels lighter than it is, especially with some basic mods. But visually, because you are sitting down low and with a long hood, it feels bigger than it really is. I don't like that feeling of sitting in a hole and the s550 - with its lower roof line, longer flatter hood, wider body, and no glass roof, to me makes the whole sensation worse.
I do wonder what kind of premium the glass roof cars will command in the future. They are certainly some of the most rare s197 cars available.
 

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Sponsor Links

Banner image
Back
Top