Watts Link vrs Panhard Bar "aka..Old Reliable"

[jsimmonstx]

I have a Fays2 watts link. There are two reasons:

a) Cost - it's least expensive link available. Well, almost. Lakewood makes one that's similar but it's held onto the axle tube with u-bolts and that simply doesn't look strong enough to me - it's about $100 cheaper than the Fays2.

b) I wanted to autocross, and the Fays2 is a legal mod across a broader range of classes because it doesn't require you to change your diff cover.

Besides the improvements in cornering, I think a watts link is also beneficial for drag racing because when the rear end tries to compress at launch, the rear of the car doesn't move laterally on the rear end, thus reducing the likelihood that the car will do something unexpected in terms of direction changes.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Wow, looks like its been busy in here.

After reading thru this thread and taking everyone's input into consideration I can certainly see some of the benefits of the Panhard bar over the Watts Link that are hard to ignore, especially for a street driven vehicle.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is making a PHB height-adjustable, which alters both the rear roll center height and the roll steer characteristics. It's analogous to adjusting the main pivot point attachment height on a Watts link (either variety).

I know of at least one DIY effort at this (on a 4th gen Camaro), and it's a universal feature on circle/oval track cars that use a track bar (aka PHB) for lateral axle location.

What I don't know is whether such an adjustment is commercially available pre-fabbed and ready for installation for the S197. It's a bit beyond "bolt-on" (I wouldn't trust a bolted arrangement), so I'm doubtful.


Norm

 

[csamsh]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is making a PHB height-adjustable, which alters both the rear roll center height and the roll steer characteristics. It's analogous to adjusting the main pivot point attachment height on a Watts link (either variety).

I know of at least one DIY effort at this (on a 4th gen Camaro), and it's a universal feature on circle/oval track cars that use a track bar (aka PHB) for lateral axle location.

What I don't know is whether such an adjustment is commercially available pre-fabbed and ready for installation for the S197. It's a bit beyond "bolt-on" (I wouldn't trust a bolted arrangement), so I'm doubtful.


Norm

I would only want this if I could get somebody to enthusiastically adjust it with a big wrench through a hole in my rear window between autox runs/track sessions.

 

[Sam Strano]

I have a Fays2 watts link. There are two reasons:

a) Cost - it's least expensive link available. Well, almost. Lakewood makes one that's similar but it's held onto the axle tube with u-bolts and that simply doesn't look strong enough to me - it's about $100 cheaper than the Fays2.

b) I wanted to autocross, and the Fays2 is a legal mod across a broader range of classes because it doesn't require you to change your diff cover.

Besides the improvements in cornering, I think a watts link is also beneficial for drag racing because when the rear end tries to compress at launch, the rear of the car doesn't move laterally on the rear end, thus reducing the likelihood that the car will do something unexpected in terms of direction changes.

Agree across the board. Lakewoods are much less beefy if you look at them and they had a recall in fact from failures. And yes, the car just drives in a more stable manner, even when drag racing a hard launching car because the swing of the body is removed.

 

[NUTCASE]

this has been a very good read.

I have not had my car to any competition events though I like making some spirited mountain pass type runs. right now I have the sphon PHB and have thought a lot about going to the whiteline watts link. looks like unless I can get myself out to some events I should just stick with my PHB overall.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I don't believe you would ever feel the difference between the PHB or the Watts on a country backroad.

This^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have a car with a watts link and one with a PHB. And I drive like an IDIOT when I'm out in the twisty stuff. You can tell the difference, but I don't think there is a performance advantage one way or another.

On the other hand when transitioning from one 80mph corner to another 80mph corner (different directions) at the track with sticky rubber the watts link has a slight advantage.

I have a watts link on my blue car because it is over the top and sees the track.

I wouldn't spend my money on a watts link for my white car even though it will see a little track time now and then.

That said, if you have the money spend it. It won't hurt as long as you get a good one, that's for sure.

 

[2013DIBGT]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is making a PHB height-adjustable, which alters both the rear roll center height and the roll steer characteristics. It's analogous to adjusting the main pivot point attachment height on a Watts link (either variety).

I know of at least one DIY effort at this (on a 4th gen Camaro), and it's a universal feature on circle/oval track cars that use a track bar (aka PHB) for lateral axle location.

What I don't know is whether such an adjustment is commercially available pre-fabbed and ready for installation for the S197. It's a bit beyond "bolt-on" (I wouldn't trust a bolted arrangement), so I'm doubtful.


Norm

Steeda looks to have a Panhard Bar that does this. It's listed as a weld in unit.

http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-competition-adjustable-panhard-bar-and-brace-for-ford-mustang.html

 

[Sky Render]

Steeda looks to have a Panhard Bar that does this. It's listed as a weld in unit.

http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-...e-panhard-bar-and-brace-for-ford-mustang.html

Yeah, Steeda has had that for quite a while. I'd really like to see someone install one of them and let the rest of us in the peanut gallery know how well it works.

Personally, if I'm going to go through all the effort to weld in a panhard bar, though, I'm going to just do a Watts link.

 

[Ivan 5.0]

Steeda looks to have a Panhard Bar that does this. It's listed as a weld in unit.

http://www.steeda.com/store/steeda-...e-panhard-bar-and-brace-for-ford-mustang.html

As does Kenny Brown if if I recall.

 

[2013DIBGT]

Can anyone comment on the negative impacts of having spherical ends on both sides of a Panhard bar excluding those related to NVH?

Would not having some "give" in a Panhard bar at the mounting point locations cause a greater likelihood of unprovoked tail out conditions on wet roads more so then it would with a Watts Links?

Also, how important do you think it is to maintain the cheap factory Panhard brace after swapping to a stiff aftermarket bar? Is it even needed at that point?

Thanks

 

[Sharad]

Also, how important do you think it is to maintain the cheap factory Panhard brace after swapping to a stiff aftermarket bar? Is it even needed at that point?

Thanks

In my opinion, the aftermarket panhard brace is MORE useful on a car with a "stiff aftermarket bar" because that aftermarket PHB is transferring more load than the flimsy OEM bar did.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Can anyone comment on the negative impacts of having spherical ends on both sides of a Panhard bar excluding those related to NVH?

There are none.

Would not having some "give" in a Panhard bar at the mounting point locations cause a greater likelihood of unprovoked tail out conditions on wet roads more so then it would with a Watts Links?

Nope

Also, how important do you think it is to maintain the cheap factory Panhard brace after swapping to a stiff aftermarket bar? Is it even needed at that point?
Thanks

A PHB brace doesn't hurt. But I have done a few and I couldn't tell they were there. I have not tried one at the track though, only on the street.

A PHB brace reduces exhaust clearance though so the chances of the exhaust touching it and driving you crazy increase.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Can anyone comment on the negative impacts of having spherical ends on both sides of a Panhard bar excluding those related to NVH?

Would not having some "give" in a Panhard bar at the mounting point locations cause a greater likelihood of unprovoked tail out conditions on wet roads more so then it would with a Watts Links?

Unless your PHB is sitting at a large inclination when the car is at rest (resulting in relatively large lateral axle movements), this is more of a theoretical consideration. Bushing compliance may well take some of the 'sting' out of truly adverse geometry (never mind that if your geometry is that bad you should really fix that first).

Whether that's worth however much vagueness at more reasonable PHB inclinations is doubtful. A hundredth of an inch or two laterally, spread out over the distance covered while the ride height changes shouldn't be any more than a tiny bit of "noise" as far as slip angles are concerned.


Norm

 

[Department Of Boost]

Whether that's worth however much vagueness at more reasonable PHB inclinations is doubtful. A hundredth of an inch or two laterally, spread out over the distance covered while the ride height changes shouldn't be any more than a tiny bit of "noise" as far as slip angles are concerned.

Norm

I agree with Norm.

I would wager that the tires move laterally on the rims while loaded far more than the PHB bushing will ever deflect.

 

[Whiskey11]

I agree with Norm.

I would wager that the tires move laterally on the rims while loaded far more than the PHB bushing will ever deflect.

Unless it's the stock PHB, and 285 wide Hankook RS3's. I can only imagine what a set of Ho-Ho's would do to the stock PHB in terms of lateral movement...

 

[Norm Peterson]

Tire distortion relative to the rims can easily exceed a whole inch, and this is not affected by whether the axle itself moves around by a fraction of an inch due to PHB bushing compliances plus a few hundredths due to geometry. I doubt that it is physically possible to get 1" deflection in a PHB without failing it in compressive buckling, which could only happen in a right turn. To see axle movement relative to the body, you need to watch the rim rather than the tire.

Also, how important do you think it is to maintain the cheap factory Panhard brace after swapping to a stiff aftermarket bar? Is it even needed at that point?

Keep in mind that the PHB brace is not loaded in its weak or "flimsy" direction. A really heavy lateral load tending to compress the PHB brace (tension in the PHB itself) will try to buckle it, but the big influence here is going to be a passenger-side curb strike which would imply that other PHB-related failures occurred as well.. Whether big sticky tires and grippy pavement would be enough is kind of a "maybe" unless there is a fatigue related failure mode here.


Norm

 

[Department Of Boost]

Unless it's the stock PHB, and 285 wide Hankook RS3's. I can only imagine what a set of Ho-Ho's would do to the stock PHB in terms of lateral movement...

IDK but I would bet my money the tires still deflect more.

 

[Whiskey11]

IDK but I would bet my money the tires still deflect more.

You may wish to go over to csamsh's build thread and watch the "rear camera" view for his car on the stock PHB with 285's... there is a lot of axle deflection going on in the video... The stock PHB is a joke, as are most of the stock componentry!

 

[Department Of Boost]

You may wish to go over to csamsh's build thread and watch the "rear camera" view for his car on the stock PHB with 285's... there is a lot of axle deflection going on in the video... The stock PHB is a joke, as are most of the stock componentry!

That doesn't mean the tires are not moving more.

Link the vid or it didn't happen.

 

[Whiskey11]

That doesn't mean the tires are not moving more.

Link the vid or it didn't happen.

Whoops, sorry, BMR panhard bar:

http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-...99281_2z8QJb#!i=2664718105&k=Mz2bTZt&lb=1&s=A