JDM 302E Engine Owners - Check In!!

[tmcolegr]

What did you use for head bolts? Ive seen cylinder walls disort from over torquing aftermarket head studs. Around 90 lb/ft the walls begin to distort. The ARP torque specs on their studs is 110 lb/ft We torque the ARP studs, if used, to 20 lb/ft then 70 lb/ft in ford sequence.

JimIII

If the block is final honed with a torque plate in place, cylinder head hardware torqued to the final assembly torque, using the same ARP studs and head gaskets as used during the final assembly process, shouldn't the bores be round when the engine is assembled?

Isn't this the whole reason for using a torque plate and the exact same head gaskets and hardware as used during final engine assembly?

 

[dysan]

What did you use for head bolts? Ive seen cylinder walls disort from over torquing aftermarket head studs. Around 90 lb/ft the walls begin to distort. The ARP torque specs on their studs is 110 lb/ft We torque the ARP studs, if used, to 20 lb/ft then 70 lb/ft in ford sequence.

JimIII

ARP head studs were used and torqued in 4 sequences....10-30-70-100 ft/lbs. The new block will be a romeo iron block. Should I just go to 90 ft/lbs on this one?

 

[weather man]

Jim is an experienced engine builder and from experience knows what works for him. But torqueing ARP to other than what ARP reccommends for their fasteners seems risky to me. I seem to remember using the wrong lube on ARP fasteners can cause issues.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

If the block is final honed with a torque plate in place, cylinder head hardware torqued to the final assembly torque, using the same ARP studs and head gaskets as used during the final assembly process, shouldn't the bores be round when the engine is assembled?

Isn't this the whole reason for using a torque plate and the exact same head gaskets and hardware as used during final engine assembly?

Yes you are absolutely right Todd, and what I should have said was at 90 ft/lbs we see the cylinder walls distort more than we like. Your going to distort the walls any time your torquing the studs/bolts, just at 90 lb/ft is where we become concerned that its showing too much. Not to mention the clamping force on the gasket. We use the Ford OE gasket set and we are already torquing over factory spec.

We have tested and seen many different torquing specs as well as other various combinations with Modular Motors. What we use as our standard torquing spec with ARP hardware, for the head studs is 20 lb/ft followed by 70 lb/ft in Ford sequence.

ARP is giving you the maximum torque spec for the studs not the preferred spec for the block that your assembling them with.

Dysan, we would assemble the block in the same spec I recommend above of 20 then 70 lb/ft with Moly lube following ford sequence.

JimIII

 

[AutoXRacer]

Don't believe me about ATS in Everett? I'm spoon feeding you here.

Not sure, I've been researching ATS reviews and talking to guys that build engines at work and no one has had stellar reviews about ATS. They all say its OK, that they personally wouldn't go there.

But, seeing your setups, if I get the same quality of service they have provided you, then I should be all good.

Hopefully I will not need to redo the shortblock; but definitely will inspect and take it from there.

 

[AutoXRacer]

One word of advise, if you're building a motor DO NOT bother with FRPP injectors; especially the 60lb and 80lb versions.

I feel like I wasted a whole year with the FRPP 80LB injectors.

Last night I installed a set of ID1000s (pricey, but worth every penny) with a start up tune and instantly my idle was perfect!!!

Time to fine tune these!!

Feast your eyes on these babys!!!

ID1000 (96LB) Injector (left) vs FRPP 80LB injector (right)

Previously with the FRPP 80lb injectors, my idle was ranging from 13.2 to 15.8 or so...just used to flop back and forth.
With the new ID1000s with just a start up tune (no fine tuning) my idle was 14.7 - 15.6; mostly at 15.2.

I am looking forward to some nice changes in fueling...

 

[blownGTvert]

One word of advise, if you're building a motor DO NOT bother with FRPP injectors; especially the 60lb and 80lb versions.

I feel like I wasted a whole year with the FRPP 80LB injectors.

Last night I installed a set of ID1000s (pricey, but worth every penny) with a start up tune and instantly my idle was perfect!!!

Time to fine tune these!!

Feast your eyes on these babys!!!

ID1000 (96LB) Injector (left) vs FRPP 80LB injector (right)

Previously with the FRPP 80lb injectors, my idle was ranging from 13.2 to 15.8 or so...just used to flop back and forth.
With the new ID1000s with just a start up tune (no fine tuning) my idle was 14.7 - 15.6; mostly at 15.2.

I am looking forward to some nice changes in fueling...

I've used FRPP injectors on multiple builds with no issue. Do you know the condition of your old injectors? Dont be so quick to assume the injectors are poor quality. You do know that the FRPP injectors are Bosch - just like your rebranded Bosch ID's right?

 

[AutoXRacer]

I've used FRPP injectors on multiple builds with no issue. Do you know the condition of your old injectors? Dont be so quick to assume the injectors are poor quality. You do know that the FRPP injectors are Bosch - just like your rebranded Bosch ID's right?

Which FRPP injectors have you used? The sub-60lbs are OK.

Rebranded Bosch!!?? What are you talking about!!??

From my understanding, the FRPP 80LB injectors have poor low-pulse width control...thus its crap for a street car since its not able to control fuel at the low end. Plus they are single cone dispersion which results in poor delivery of fuel.
At least that's my experience.

My FRPP 80LB injectors were brand new 10K miles ago.
Fueling ssues (rich) since day 1.

I'm not saying they are poor quality, I am saying they are not recommended for a street car; per my experience.

 

[blownGTvert]

Which FRPP injectors have you used? The sub-60lbs are OK.

Rebranded Bosch!!?? What are you talking about!!??

From my understanding, the FRPP 80LB injectors have poor low-pulse width control...thus its crap for a street car since its not able to control fuel at the low end. Plus they are single cone dispersion which results in poor delivery of fuel.
At least that's my experience.

My FRPP 80LB injectors were brand new 10K miles ago.
Fueling ssues (rich) since day 1.

I'm not saying they are poor quality, I am saying they are not recommended for a street car; per my experience.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the FRPP 80lb injectors in a street car. Many sets are currently on the road today. The IDs are Bosch injectors. You pay a premium for purple adapters and 1% flow matching versus 2-3% from Bosch.I started a thread on this a few weeks ago and did a lot of research.

 

[weather man]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the FRPP 80lb injectors in a street car. Many sets are currently on the road today. The IDs are Bosch injectors. You pay a premium for purple adapters and 1% flow matching versus 2-3% from Bosch.I started a thread on this a few weeks ago and did a lot of research.

There is a big difference between being a max of 2% off and 6% off. Especially at idle or part throttle.

 

[AutoXRacer]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the FRPP 80lb injectors in a street car. Many sets are currently on the road today. The IDs are Bosch injectors. You pay a premium for purple adapters and 1% flow matching versus 2-3% from Bosch.I started a thread on this a few weeks ago and did a lot of research.

So why do tuners shy away from the FRPP 80lbers?
I had a few tuners tell me no thank you for my business..due to the 80lbs.

Also, why are so many tuners struggling to get the 80s to work properly?

I'm not the only one.

 

[01yellerCobra]

I'm running the FRPP 80's. I had an easier time tuning them then the 39's I had for awhile. I still have a couple of quirks, but the car is pretty far from stock so I expect it. I can't remember how many holes they have. I bought them about 3 years ago.

Misspelling brought to you by tapatalk

 

[BruceH]

So why do tuners shy away from the FRPP 80lbers?
I had a few tuners tell me no thank you for my business..due to the 80lbs.

Also, why are so many tuners struggling to get the 80s to work properly?

I'm not the only one.

The 80 frpp are made by Continental. Better known as Siemens Deka. The low pulse width linearity is high but it's still good enough at lower pulse widths to tune with imo.

I've had three sets of SD 80's. One set was flow matched and worked fantastic. Another set I bought off of ebay for under $300. The ebay version didn't work so well. I resold that set with full disclosure on ebay. The last set were also flow matched. They were great with the higher pulsewidths needed for e85 but gasoline was a little off at idle and the banks differed in fuel trims enough to bother me. If I turned the minimum pulsewidth up they idled great but richer than I wanted to see. fuelinjectorconnection.com took them back on trade for a set of Bosch Racing injectors that flowed 95lbs at 3 bar and 127 at 4 bar. The Bosch Racing injectors are very good.

IMO the generic non frpp SD 80's are hit and miss unless they are flow matched. There was bad tuning data published on the 80's at one time by frpp.

Some tuners have no issue with frpp 80s and some won't touch them. I prefer Bosch.

Here's the factory spec sheet for anyone who is interested:

http://www.siemensdekadealer.com/specsheets/FI114991.jpg

 

[BadPiggy]

just like your rebranded Bosch ID's right?

Rebranded Bosch!!?? What are you talking about

The ID's are Bosch injectors with their name. They can be had for about $200 less than ID's. Bobby with S&H sells them.

 

[Timmbo]

So why do tuners shy away from the FRPP 80lbers?
I had a few tuners tell me no thank you for my business..due to the 80lbs.

Also, why are so many tuners struggling to get the 80s to work properly?

I'm not the only one.

Bob Kurgan (Kurgan Motorsports in Atlanta) and I discussed FRPP 80's quite a bit. He loves them and has no issue with them. He specifically told me he tunes 800 rwhp Cobras running those injectors without issue. HOWEVER, your rail pressure with these injectors needs to be about 60 psi. With that said you can step up to an ID1000 and run a lower base pressure which makes it easier on the pumps. I chose the ID1000s because I just personally felt more comfortable with a lower base pressure for my power level. So yes, there are tuners out there that have zero issue running big power on 80s.

 

[AutoXRacer]

All I have to say is that these ID1000s are SMOOTH!!!!!
From feathering to light throttle, the response is smooth...
With the 80s, I could not even feather the throttle is was so choppy and rough.
The transition from idle to slowly releasing the clutch is super smooth (without throttle input).

I imagined that FRPP 80lb injectors were fine when I bought them. Thought OEM/Ford, should be fine. But after all the issues I've had with them, the challenges in tuning, and now experiencing the ID1000s...awe man, I am kicking myself wondering why I did not start with these since day 1. I probably would not have had 50% the frustrations I've dealt with all year long.

I drove the car for the first time with the new injectors, mind you this is a start up tune and needs fine tuning. Driving the car to the dyno after work. But the drive in to work was a pleasure!! It was like driving a whole new car...OEM smooth!!!

Again, not bashing the FRPP 80lb injectors, just saying you can do a lot better!!

 

[hamish]

You are Bashing them.
And comparing a seperate start up tune with the new injectors to the old tune and old injectors isn't exactly Apples to Apples.
I am glad you are on the right track for getting the car to run where you want it.
But you are most definately taking a shit on the 80lbers.

 

[lito]

Ok, lets talk a little about injectors here.

Every injector has its proper application, there are injectors that are better for certain uses.

One of the problems of the 80s is their thin spray cone, they are not ideal for dual valve intakes, there is a reason why stock injectors are dual cone, as 39s, as 32s (ford injectors), and others, that is the reason they have clips on them too.

With a thin cone as the one in the 80s, you are wetting the port divider of intake runner, this along their poor short pulse behavior and other stuff makes them a really bad injector for a cold engine and far from ideal when hot (where the transienting issues are not as bad).

IDs are also single cone but wider and a awesome short pulse behavior, they provide excellent characterization data which helps a lot. I've read that ID will be coming with dual cone versions some day, that would be even better for our engines.

80s can be made work somehow good, most of the time by wasting quite some fuel in the process, every platform is different, an injector that works great in a 2v may not be ideal for a 3V/4V. All that has to be taken into account if driveability and MPGs are important.

For example, I have the case of the TT FR500C clone engine, the injector bosses are probably 8-10 inches away from the intake runners, this is a 4V but with the bosses being so far, a thin cone as the 80s looked be ideal, and bang, they are perfect for this configuration, you are injecting into the manifold running instead of onto the valve. So every config has its ideal injector.

For a 3V/4V that driveability and MPG are important, they are not. Type of fuel used needs to be considered too.

Power? as long as injector is big enough, all can provide the fuel needed, that is not a good measure. (even that there would be injectors that would still work better in certain configurations for WOT too)

 

[JoshK]

So what do you say to the Bosch vs ID injectors Manuel? I have been thinking about picking up some Bosch 1000cc or 12XXcc injectors

 

[lito]

So what do you say to the Bosch vs ID injectors Manuel? I have been thinking about picking up some Bosch 1000cc or 12XXcc injectors

AFAIK they are not the same, for starters, physical size is different, characterization should be different, and in the case that they were the same you are paying extra for being matched not only to each other in the set but with the characterization data they provide. From the tuner point of view, this is appreciated.

Are you expecting to go up from where you are now by much? AFAIK your 80s with E85 are working good for you so maybe there is no need to change. I would test what you have and then decide.

Even so, if you decide to use those Bosch, we can make them work too.