Whats the story behind failing cam follwers...?

[AutoXRacer]

I've experienced catastrophic valve train failure due to failing cam follwers (rollers / arms); both driver and passenger side.

Has anyone else experienced this? Did you ever figure out the cause? My followers are failing in just a few thousand miles; less than 10K I believe. The rollers end up locking up...figuring the needle bearings are failing. I have found 6 followers in addition to the completely failed with rough rollers.


My valve train setup is Comp Cams 127450, PAC 3V Springs (Pac springs are 105 seat pressure @ 1.670 and the open pressure is 270lbs @ 1.120 says max lift of .550"), in Ford Racing CNC & Ported heads; my phasers are locked, VCT removed, and timing retarded 4 degrees.

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[Dino Dino Bambino]

I don't know the definitive answer but I'm beginning to think that higher valve spring pressures may be the reason, especially where SPR cams are used. This isn't happening in engines with stock or NSR cams.

 

[Flusher]

Have you had a follower failure without a cam failure? The cam looks soft to me.

We have been experiencing that same problem, in the boat in my avatar, with big block Chevys. Our cause was soft cam cores.

Are you able to have a hardness test (Rockwell or Brinell) run on the cams, to rule that out as a possibility? Cam lobes are a bearing surface, and need to have a certain hardness. I would first try dragging a file across one of the good lobes. If the cam is soft, the file will be able to cut it. If the cam is hardened, the file will just slide across the surface and will not cut.

Comp can sometimes be helpful (sometimes not) in diagnosing the root cause.

Sometimes it is difficult to determine what happened first, unless you catch it when failure is just starting. To me, that doesn't look like an oil starvation failure or a roller failure. It looks like the rollers are pushing into the lobes. I also don't believe that it is from excessive spring pressure, based on the specs of your springs.

In your last picture, where the lobes contacted the follower body, but the follower is mostly in tact, do the rollers still turn without excessive play? I understand that after a failure like this, there will be debris in the bearings and I can see where the damaged follower body is in contact with the roller? Is there a flat spot on the rollers?

 

[white95]

Had that very same problem but with the stock cams around 40k miles. It just randomly developed a tick and it was a frozen cam follower bearing.

 

[RED09GT]

The 2009 and 2010 F150's have a rep for the roller followers breaking on stock motors and it seems like the stock replacement ones were just as bad until they revised the design to the smaller oil hole that directs the oil towards the cam lobe.
I will be trying the revised ones when my motor goes back together-I haven't had a failure but if the internet is to be believed, my stockers are a ticking time bomb. Maybe that extra oil directed to the cam lobe keeps the follower bearings alive, it's pretty plausible.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Have you had a follower failure without a cam failure?

Are you able to have a hardness test (Rockwell or Brinell) run on the cams, to rule that out as a possibility?

In your last picture, where the lobes contacted the follower body, but the follower is mostly in tact, do the rollers still turn without excessive play? I understand that after a failure like this, there will be debris in the bearings and I can see where the damaged follower body is in contact with the roller? Is there a flat spot on the rollers?

Yes, this has happened previously, but I caught it in time before cam damage occurred.
I have found numerous followers where the bearing roll rough and gritty.
I have previously and recently found rollers that have seized and were flat spotted due to the cam lobe.

So the initial failure mode are the followers, the roller bearings fail, leading to seized rollers, and if not caught early, the seized follower roller will eat into the cam over time.

Problem is with a motor making over 700HP, you don't notice these failures unless they are audible. I've been driving with two cylinders that only had two functioning valves.

I have not heard of getting cams checked for hardness. I personally feel the cam is not the failure mode as I have found seized follower rollers completely flat spotted with only surface damage to the cam lobe.

When the followers fail, the needle bearings start wearing, rollers start rolling gritty and rough until the bearings fail and the roller drops into the follower body seizing, then the cam lobe starts wearing into the roller until it eventually starts wearing into the follower body.

....from my observations...

 

[AutoXRacer]

The 2009 and 2010 F150's have a rep for the roller followers breaking on stock motors and it seems like the stock replacement ones were just as bad until they revised the design to the smaller oil hole that directs the oil towards the cam lobe.
I will be trying the revised ones when my motor goes back together-I haven't had a failure but if the internet is to be believed, my stockers are a ticking time bomb. Maybe that extra oil directed to the cam lobe keeps the follower bearings alive, it's pretty plausible.

I did read that. And I was wondering why the F150 3V had that issue and not the Mustang 3Vs... What is the difference in valve train?

The new followers I just picked up from Ford do have a much smaller hole!!
The original OEM followers from my stock engine had much larger holes, I believe they even had some followers without holes on earlier model year. But when I built my current motor, the followers had a slightly smaller hole from my OEM ones. And these new ones I just picked up, the hole is even smaller.



View attachment 83734

 

[Laga]

Here is close up of the original followers in my 05 that was recently rebuilt. One of the followers was starting to show wear and was on the verge of damaging the cam. It looks like the ones the OP posted.

 

[RED09GT]

I did read that. And I was wondering why the F150 3V had that issue and not the Mustang 3Vs... What is the difference in valve train?

The new followers I just picked up from Ford do have a much smaller hole!!
The original OEM followers from my stock engine had much larger holes, I believe they even had some followers without holes on earlier model year. But when I built my current motor, the followers had a slightly smaller hole from my OEM ones. And these new ones I just picked up, the hole is even smaller.

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There is really no difference in Valvetrain between the 5.4 and the 4.6 so it could have been as simple as how they allotted the shipments of the roller followers. Maybe the 5.4 and 4.6 were assembled in different plants and the lower production mustang motors were built with the leftover followers that didn't fail on a regular basis from previous years.
This is just a theory.

 

[skwerl]

Maybe my info is bad, but I thought the latest Motorcraft rockers and followers had larger oil passages? I just had to go into a 5.4 in my F350 last winter and my (Ford certified 30 year expert ) mechanic recommended I replace the rockers and followers just to try and increase oil flow/pressure. He said the latest version had larger holes for more oil to the rollers. I bought the kit as well as the high output oil pump from Melling. Truck is running great.

 

[Laga]

Maybe my info is bad, but I thought the latest Motorcraft rockers and followers had larger oil passages? I just had to go into a 5.4 in my F350 last winter and my (Ford certified 30 year expert ) mechanic recommended I replace the rockers and followers just to try and increase oil flow/pressure. He said the latest version had larger holes for more oil to the rollers. I bought the kit as well as the high output oil pump from Melling. Truck is running great.

These are what you are referring to I believe. We used them on my build, along with the billet oil pump.from this thread. https://www.s197forum.com/threads/melling-m340hv-oil-pump-thoughts.139957/

 

[Flusher]

...When the followers fail, the needle bearings start wearing, rollers start rolling gritty and rough until the bearings fail and the roller drops into the follower body seizing, then the cam lobe starts wearing into the roller until it eventually starts wearing into the follower body.

....from my observations...

Since you have observed failure of the roller before failure of the libe. Again, approaching this from an OHV perspective.

The oiling that Laga, Skwerl, et al mentioned is plausible and makes sense. Compared to most OHV cams/tappets, it doesn't appear that the volume of oil flowing past the OHC follower is less than the oil draining directly over the tappets, as the oil returns to the pan, in an OHV application.

Oiling was initially believed to be the cause of solid roller lifter failure. Some of the EMC engine builders went so far as to install carburetor jets, into the main oil galley, to directly spray oil on the roller lifter/cam lobe interface. Turns out that, in the case of the OHV, oil starvation was not the issue. Not saying that oil starvation is not your problem, just presenting a little history on the topic.

The one good thing that came out of this was pressure fed oiling to the roller on the lifter. This is a dated picture, but it gets the point across.

https://images.app.goo.gl/cnwDi51J8UQB32gt8

Another issue that arose was long periods of idling or low-RPM operation. The finding was that the roller wasn't properly being loaded, because of lash clearance. The roller would slide on the lobe instead of properly rolling. The needle bearings would fail, immediately followed by the roller, the lifter, the lobe, the block, and then everything else.

Rev kits became a thing. The concept was, a spring, located between the lifter and cylinder head, acting only as the lifter, for the sole purpose of controlling the lifter, so that the roller properly rolls on the lobe. Again, this is to prevent the needle bearings from getting hammered.

https://images.app.goo.gl/aJLVbrumvFZuGpoq5

Isky came out with the Red Zone lifter, which used a solid bushing instead of needle bearings, and the problem mostly went away, primarily because a bushing has much greater load capacity than a needle bearing.

https://images.app.goo.gl/7qbfe4FGfB2xSZsR6

Directly relating to your issue:
1.) I think the updated follower with the oil mod is a good call
2.) Are the lash adjusters working properly, without binding, applying proper preload to the rollers?
3.) Is there excessive clearance is the lash adjuster bores?
4.) Do you have sufficient oil flow and pressure to actuate the lash adjusters?
5.) None of the lash adjusters are sticking?
6.) I understand that having the correct spec oil is critical to proper function.

FWIW, I hope this helps. Good luck.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[weather man]

When I did my 2nd built motor, I was playing around with different big lift cams on blower setup. Did a cam change after only a month and the new stock chain guides showed signs of deflecting, according to my engine builder. Ordered the MMR billet guides and ended up doing another cam swap back to a stage 1.5 cam. No signs of deflection. Also went back to unlocked and unlimited cams. I did have Jesel followers. Made big power with a 3.4 whipple and had no issues.

The point being that if the chain guides are deflecting, they are allowing some pretty severe shock loading on the valvetrain and that may be why the VCT and stock followers shit the bed with stock chain guides.

 

[RED09GT]

I re-read the thread about the Melling 340 oil pump and due to the pictures that @GlassTop09 had posted, I went and inspected my stock roller followers. 4 of them had similar-or worse defects in the thin part of the body between the roller and the lash adjusters and 3 of them had smaller defects. It's like the metallurgy and QC took a big dump in the later years of production. A lot of these look like the perfect place for a crack to start.

 

[drive_55_not]

I had a follower fail on an intake valve on cylinder #4 last year.

Pretty sure it was caused by POS Boundary OPG's causing a loss of oil pressure.

I had finished an 1/8 mile pass and noticed zero oil pressure on my gauge and the low oil pressure idiot light was lit.

I loaded the car back on the trailer and let it sit over night, next morning fired it up to move it into the garage and heard a rattle as fired up and then seizure as the valve dropped.

I think I'll put it back together this fall and see if I can get it into the 9's.

I pretty got away from my 3v after I bought a Hellcat .. that thing runs 10,0xx with a heck of alot less work.

LOL


./

 

[GlassTop09]

I did have Jesel followers

I looked those up & I LIKED what I saw!
May I ask, where did you purchase those Jesel followers from?

Checked JEGS.....they sell Jesel rockers for SBC, BBC, SBF, BBF but they didn't show anything for Ford Mod Motors 4.6L, 5.4L.

I know they're very expensive but they're also an excellent final remedy to this issue & they're rebuildable (I really like that part).

Appreciate any info given.

 

[Midlife Crises]

I loaded the car back on the trailer and let it sit over night, next morning fired it up to move it into the garage and heard a rattle as fired up and then seizure as the valve dropped.

How did the oil pump gears drop a valve?

 

[Flusher]

I looked those up & I LIKED what I saw!
May I ask, where did you purchase those Jesel followers from?

Checked JEGS.....they sell Jesel rockers for SBC, BBC, SBF, BBF but they didn't show anything for Ford Mod Motors 4.6L, 5.4L.

I know they're very expensive but they're also an excellent final remedy to this issue & they're rebuildable (I really like that part).

Appreciate any info given.

Call Jegs or Summit directly, if you don't see it on the website.

 

[drive_55_not]

How did the oil pump gears drop a valve?

"POS Boundary OPG's caused a loss of oil pressure" .. caused needle bearings to fail, roller bearing pin also broke and the carcass got caught between the follower and valve spring causing valve spring to hang dislodging the valve spring keepers, Lack of valve spring retention caused valve to remain extended into combustion chamber and corresponding impact with piston.


.

 

[RED09GT]

I looked those up & I LIKED what I saw!
May I ask, where did you purchase those Jesel followers from?

Checked JEGS.....they sell Jesel rockers for SBC, BBC, SBF, BBF but they didn't show anything for Ford Mod Motors 4.6L, 5.4L.

I know they're very expensive but they're also an excellent final remedy to this issue & they're rebuildable (I really like that part).

Appreciate any info given.

There are a few examples of broken Jesel followers on this site. They are just too thin where the trunion bearing is located.

See post #47. https://www.s197forum.com/threads/project-“slow-white”.135727/page-3#post-2486491