2008 Stage 3 ROUSH - Rebirth...

[wht67]

How much did ID charge for the cleaning/flow checking? I bought some ID1000s that were used with E85 and I am positive that they were not given the treatment Jeremy described and since the fire at my house they have been in storage with the restoration company so I will need to get them serviced I guess... So much for a good deal on ID1000s.

 

[JeremyH]

I thought you are suspecting debris in the system based on what ID said, it has to go through all the mentioned parts to get to the injectors, not to mention it had to get in your fuel tank first...The better the filter media and the more pressure and flow you push through the system the more often it will need cleaned or replaced. So I would definetly check it if you do indeed suspect debris. The variance does not mean they are bad at all and variance is normal for the manufacturing process. That is what flowmatching is, pairing the most like sets of injectors based on the normal variance which is 6% from the manufacturer(bosch) which is what ID uses. So since you are buying new injectors to mix in, are they going to flow match and select like injectors to match the other four you have, otherwise your new off the shelf injectors may have the same variance already since they aren't the original ones from your set. I would ask them that. Otherwise you just blowing money.

For example those 3 injectors that flowed 985cc, if you matched them with 5 other injectors that flowed 980-990cc you would now have a 1% flowmatched set of 1000cc injectors again. A set of 8 of those vice a set of 8 that flowed 1020-1030 would be no different as far as flowmatching and variance is concerned. You would never know the difference as far as power potential unless you ran the injectors past 90% duty cycle and they became static to hit that max flow rating. Then set x might support 10-20more hp than set y etc.

For the f10, the end on the inlet side is threaded and twists off from the body, you can use a an wrench or smooth jaw adjustable wrench to remove it.

I'm going to pick up one of these.
http://www.foreinnovations.com/product_p/an8-orb10-npt18.htm

And start monitoring pressure loss through my filter by mounting a fuel pressure gauge at the inlet of the filter to compare to my rail gauge. Will let me know when it needs cleaned and what to expect when its new. I've gotten reports of filters so clogged you can barely blow air through them as most guys don't replace the filter more often after increasing the capacity of the system like they should. The problem with both return and returnless systems is the pcm or fpr will just increase flow to maintain pressure and hide the fact that the filter may need cleaned or replaced. If the pumps have to push 60psi up against the filter just to get 40psi to the rails, that resulting flow loss/capability of the system could be quite staggering when pushing power and boosting.

It's all good man, hopefully I am helping you learn a little bit more about it!

 

[AutoXRacer]

How much did ID charge for the cleaning/flow checking? I bought some ID1000s that were used with E85 and I am positive that they were not given the treatment Jeremy described and since the fire at my house they have been in storage with the restoration company so I will need to get them serviced I guess... So much for a good deal on ID1000s.

They charged me $100 for the flow tests/cleaning.

 

[one eyed willy]

on your latest build did you modify anything in the fuel system between the filter and rails? i know you had the rail welded and modified. wondering if there was anything sitting in the rails or hoses that could have got into the injectors that was already past the filter?

 

[JeremyH]

on your latest build did you modify anything in the fuel system between the filter and rails? i know you had the rail welded and modified. wondering if there was anything sitting in the rails or hoses that could have got into the injectors that was already past the filter?

hmmm, definetly something to think about.

 

[AutoXRacer]

on your latest build did you modify anything in the fuel system between the filter and rails? i know you had the rail welded and modified. wondering if there was anything sitting in the rails or hoses that could have got into the injectors that was already past the filter?

Lots of modifications!!!

I removed the stock fuel filter for the Fore F10 along with all the stock plumbing downstream of the filter, then new braided lines to a Y adapter, two more lines, and then the fuel rails. All this was new.

I blew compressed are and rinsed everything with brake cleaner.

I was paranoid of metal debris after all this cutting/fabricating.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Fuelab got back to me and they claim 0.25-0.5 PSI drop across the 6 micron micro-fiberglass filter media.

 

[JeremyH]

I talked to Justin Fore, he mentioned ID uses their 10 micron ss filters for all their in house builds and this was news to him so he will be contacting them, asked him about the 6 micron fiberglass filter and this is what he said.

"Regarding 6 micron fiberglass...we can offer this filtration media, but we've avoided it since we've had several cases of customers experiencing the nuissance of ultra-short filter clog intervals and switched AWAY from the 6 micron fiberglass filtration to our 10 micron stainless filtration. (with excellent results)"

And some more helpful information for filter change intervals. OEM fuel sytem and filter 12-16 months. Aftermarket fuel system with 10 micron ss or cellulose filter 6-8 months and 6 micron or less 2-4 month change interval. This would all be subject to how much you drive the car etc. A tank of bad gas or dirty gas can defeintly clog fuel pump filters and burn them up and clog inline filters etc.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Justin asked me to call him this morning... On my way to talk to him as I go to a meeting. I'll report back. I'm sure he will say the same as above.

I am not trying to throw anyone under the bus or create trouble within the aftermarket community. I am just reporting back what I was told/advised.

I don't want to cause any tension within the community. I just want whats best for our cars.

 

[JeremyH]

As you know those two companies work together. He had heard/been told about this/you before I even asked him about it. So I would imagine he would want to get some more info from you and Tony instead of hearing stuff like this through the grapevine. Tony may not even be aware of it. So if ID does in fact want to reccommend a smaller than 10 micron filtration media for the injectors they sell, which is the injector manufacturer industry standard, then I'm sure Fore will support their reccommendations with a filter option.


My thoughts, is this the solution to your problem or a bandaid? Has anyone had issue with high horsepower builds and filters to warrant a smaller media? Have you looked at your system to see if you actually have a problem, ie look in the fuel tank, inspect fuel pump filters, inline filter element and rails like Paul suggested. etc

 

[AutoXRacer]

Seems like using a more stringent filter will cause severe maintenance intervals.
Using a micro-fiberglass element seems to trap a lot of debris causing higher than desired maintenance intervals.

Seems like I stirred up things () between ID and Fore to understand their ID1000 particle filtration requirements. Seems like the ID1000s have their own specs as compared to standard Bosch injectors.

I was suggested to go with the paper version of the Fore filters since I am pump gas.
E85 would have to keep using the stainless (the paper version could be used short term).

More to come... But speaking with Justin, makes me feel better about keeping my current F10 with stainless.

One thing I did not due which Justin suggests when assembling a fuel system is to flush out the system down stream of the injectors. I flushed each component out, but not the system as a whole.

So I will be doing that this time around before installing the injectors again.

I'll just have to put a bucket under each rail the catch the gobs of fuel that are going to jet out. lol

When I removed the stock OEM filter, I back-flowed it/drained it into a flask and the fuel was clear and clean; it was run over 10,000 miles.

I really don't want to take part the F10 filter...you think I should. I guess the real answer is I should. sigh

 

[JeremyH]

If you want to see what that stock filter caught you have to cut it open. The f10 is very easy to take a part, you can clean it while your in there. I would, but its up to you.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So long story short... Fore (Justin; amazing customer service) did confirm and sort out the filtration requirements for the ID1000s.

The Fore F10 filter provides adequate filtration for the ID1000s.

Most likely, the debris came from assembly of the fuel system. It is highly recommended to flush the fuel system prior to installing injectors...so flowing out the rails without injectors installed; even if you flush each individual component prior to assembly.

 

[BruceH]

Has anyone had these issues with the stock filter? Are ID injectors so sensitive that they need a whole new fuel system so they don't get damaged?

Gerald, I would of given up long ago if faced with all that you have been through. Flushing the lines like you did is more than most would of done prior to assembly imo. I can't really think of anything else you could of done to protect the sensitive ID injectors.

Did I understand correctly that ID needs different requirements than a regular Bosch? I've seen ID post that they don't modify the injectors so I wonder what it is?

Good luck Gerald.

 

[tigerhonaker]

Has anyone had these issues with the stock filter? Are ID injectors so sensitive that they need a whole new fuel system so they don't get damaged?

Gerald, I would of given up long ago if faced with all that you have been through. Flushing the lines like you did is more than most would of done prior to assembly imo. I can't really think of anything else you could of done to protect the sensitive ID injectors.

Did I understand correctly that ID needs different requirements than a regular Bosch? I've seen ID post that they don't modify the injectors so I wonder what it is?

Good luck Gerald.

Gerald, Bruce and others,

I actually do read this Thread and all the posts.

In doing so I just cannot imagine anyone having to go through all the things I have read on here.

The latest being this ID clogged/ruined injectors and flushing complete fuel system.

Honestly if all that has taken place with this build and still having issues I would have SOLD my Bullitt Mustang and never looked back.

I really like my Mustang and have taught myself to have patience in messing with it over the years.

But reading and trying to honestly completely comprehend the things with this build is just way the heck over my head.

Ain't no smart ass wise-cracks coming from me at all to you Gerald.

I just don't think even I could tolerate all this ongoing never-ending crap for 1-build.

Man I wish you the best of out comes on this as you Damn sure deserve it IMO.

Terry

 

[BeachMonkey100]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" *in the Kelly Clarkson voice* lol

 

[lito]

"What doesn't kill you makes you stronger" *in the Kelly Clarkson voice* lol

Except on the wallet, no way this will make it any stronger, lol.

 

[BeachMonkey100]

Lol this is true! nothing is easy on the wallet anymore

 

[05stroker]

The posts in this thread make me feel like whom ever you spoke to at ID is full of shit and just trying to sale parts. I was waiting to hear your results before sending my 2000s to them for " cleaning /ass fucking". I have some research to do now before sending them a thing. 2% does not kill a cylinder IMO.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Has anyone had these issues with the stock filter? Are ID injectors so sensitive that they need a whole new fuel system so they don't get damaged?

Gerald, I would of given up long ago if faced with all that you have been through. Flushing the lines like you did is more than most would of done prior to assembly imo. I can't really think of anything else you could of done to protect the sensitive ID injectors.

Did I understand correctly that ID needs different requirements than a regular Bosch? I've seen ID post that they don't modify the injectors so I wonder what it is?

Good luck Gerald.

From my understanding,the ID1000s are not Bosch injectors. Seems like they are a standalone injector with its own requirements/speccs.

The other IDs like the 750, 850, 1500, and 2000s are Bosch derived.

Please let me know if this sounds wrong. I have been given so muh fuel tech info that I may be speaking erroneously.