Can Someone Explain This??? Sigh (Valve Train)

[AutoXRacer]

A) Why does it consume 1 qt per 1000 miles ?? That's 5 qts in 5 K miles !

B) where is this 1 qt going to, if it doesn't collect in the catch can...or exhaust ? It has to be going some where. You don't see oil leaking anywhere, so the mystery missing oil gets even more baffling.

C) have you got cats installed ? If so, and oil ended up in the exhaust, it could damage cats, with 1 qt every 1 k miles.

There is some fundamental root cause you are missing somewhere. Run it past some eng type..and see if they can come up with a test to evaluate the oil flow system as a whole.

Oil isn't getting to where it should. Parts are not being lubricated. Oil consumption is nuts. What are you using for an oil filter ?

Hey Jim!!!

A) Engine builder claims its due to the low tension rings and forged pistons. Short trips on the motor doesn't help either from what I am told. I have spoken with several engine builders and 1 quart per 1,000 miles is not that uncommon for loose tolerance motors...even in modern motors. At least thats what I am told. I burn 1 full quart on a track day, 5x20 mins sessions. Thats what the new Corvettes burn...but they don't burn much on the street though.

B) The exhaust is a little dark, but not that bad. I do see some oil on the spark plugs. So its definitely going through the exhaust. No leaks and no blow by.

C) No cats...

You did mean 10nm (89 in/lbs) right? Must have, 89ft/lbs would have probably broken the bolts or pulled the threads out of the heads.

-Steve

Hi Steve, sorry, yes I meant in/lbs.

Gerald,

I'm no engine builder nor do I claim to know what's going on with your several different issues.

But ..............

I don't mind sharing a few thoughts with you if that was my engine.

I would be finding out No-Matter who or what Shop I had to get with why the heck it's going through 1-Quart of oil every 1K miles.

That's just simply ridiculous these days ............

And there is No-Way I would put it back together unless someone found out why those Cam Followers looked BURNED-UP and Seized.

There seems to me to be Multiple issues buddy and I'm just saying if it was mine I would be getting some professional to look into it.

And to have to mix different weight oils to try to get around it going through a quart every 1K miles is crazy.

That's a very expensive engine to run if you were a person that put a lot of miles on it.

Bottom-Line is for what it's worth buddy there are just to many things that are out of whack and you need to find out what the heck is really going on.

And like I said if it were mine I would be doing exactly what I have said in this post, get some professional help !!!

Terry

The plan is to prime the motor and see how much oil gets to the heads...if all the lifter bores and cam ports ooze oil, I'm slapping it together and hoping for the best.

If it desintergrates at the track, then a new Coyote or LS7 is in my future... Kidding about the LS7. lol

I really hate this motor...its be a nightmare since day one. I should have just bought a 2013 GT500 and called it a day.

 

[tigerhonaker]

Gerald,

I have read I think all your posts on the engine and I agree it has been for the most part a freaking pain.

I hope all works out for you ............

T.

 

[BruceH]

Hi Gerald, Like we talked about I'm of the opinion that the sbc bearing clearances needing thicker oil combined with the need for top end oiling of the valve train and stock oil gallery/oil psi specs probably contributed. How much we will never know without having a few million for testing and data collection. Blocked oil passages would be another suspect.

How did the cam journals look? I'd think that improper oiling would show up there first because they require a wedge and the only way to get an oil wedge is with the proper viscosity, pressure, and flow.

A recap on oil flow through a 3v motor:





The oil pump is designed to feed the motor with stock clearances and 5w-20. It would be nice to have the ability to test oil flow and psi throughout the motor with different pressure relief and different psi. It would confirm or repute our (the Mustang community) speculations on what happens when we change things up.

 

[AutoXRacer]

How did the cam journals look? I'd think that improper oiling would show up there first because they require a wedge and the only way to get an oil wedge is with the proper viscosity, pressure, and flow.

The cam journals look great!!! Nice and smooth almost polished look. No signs what so ever of oil starvation.

My stock motor suffered from oil starvation at the heads and the cam journals are rigged/gouged. Although, the lifters and followers looked great. My stock motor heads starved of oil due to VCT solenoid screens blocked with metal debris. The metal debris came from a disintegrating thrust bearing.

The driver side is perfect...no issues what so ever. On the passenger side, only those 3 failed followers on 3 different cylinders.

Oh and would it be OK if I held on to your wedge until next week? I got all my parts. I was going to put it all back together this weekend. But I'll prime the motor first and check oil flow to the heads.

Thank you Bruce!!

 

[Macman45]

I had a follower eaten up on a purely stock 3V after 30K miles. Lifter floated (apparently from over-revving but IDK) and it let the follower/roller literally fall out. It got lunched of course. 2 more followers went out, all on cylinder #4.

On my passenger side too. curious if yours had anything to do with that oil, or over-revving or what it was.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Interesting. Definitely not over-reving as I typically drive in the 1,500 to 2,700 RPM range. Haven't been to the track since last summer.

 

[BruceH]

The cam journals look great!!! Nice and smooth almost polished look. No signs what so ever of oil starvation.

My stock motor suffered from oil starvation at the heads and the cam journals are rigged/gouged. Although, the lifters and followers looked great. My stock motor heads starved of oil due to VCT solenoid screens blocked with metal debris. The metal debris came from a disintegrating thrust bearing.

The driver side is perfect...no issues what so ever. On the passenger side, only those 3 failed followers on 3 different cylinders.

Oh and would it be OK if I held on to your wedge until next week? I got all my parts. I was going to put it all back together this weekend. But I'll prime the motor first and check oil flow to the heads.

Thank you Bruce!!

No problem keeping it for awhile.

 

[swflastang05]

So you think I should prime the motor with the lifters off and check for lubrication throughout the heads?
I did prime the motor when I dropped it in before the initial startup...but the valve covers were on (motor fully assembled).

I would fully reassemble the lash adjusters (lifters) and followers, etc then prime it and see if those damaged followers appear to have the same flow as the others. I always prime my motors with the valve covers off so I can see that all 24 followers have the same oil flow. I'm no expert but I highly doubt mixing the oils you mentioned had anything to do with this. I run the same DT40 you used to run with my motors with SBC rod bearings, I have about 30-40 psi at idle and 80-90 psi cold @ 2,500 rpm, about 60 psi heat soaked cruising at 1500 rpm. I run .025 - 026 clearance on the rods and .020 - .021 on the mains. I would definitely find the problem before you put it back together, and I feel your pain, I'm on my 3rd block with my motor lol!

 

[ArtQ]

Your lash adjuster pre load may be excessive on the failed follower and the followers that show excessive heat. Your engine builder should be able to perform this check. Basically, if your lash adjusters are pumping up too tight during operation, due to excessive valve stem length/valve seated too deep this will surely cause follower failure. Using a higher viscosity oil will exaggerate this issue as the lash adjuster will pump up more as rpm increases. Those lash adjuster internal clearances are designed to work with a 20 weight oil. 20 weight will bleed past clearances way faster than 50 weight. Hence the adjuster pumping up more at higher viscosity and rpm. So if your preload is already on the tight side that 50 wt will make it worse.

 

[DiMora]

I would have the cams inspected by Comp or replace them. I would do the flow check, replace all the trashed parts and not run it until I find the culprit. I suspect your oil passages are clogged due to metal left from the Comp cam manufacturing process. Check your VCT screens too.

 

[Badd GT]

Your lash adjuster pre load may be excessive on the failed follower and the followers that show excessive heat. Your engine builder should be able to perform this check. Basically, if your lash adjusters are pumping up too tight during operation, due to excessive valve stem length/valve seated too deep this will surely cause follower failure. Using a higher viscosity oil will exaggerate this issue as the lash adjuster will pump up more as rpm increases. Those lash adjuster internal clearances are designed to work with a 20 weight oil. 20 weight will bleed past clearances way faster than 50 weight. Hence the adjuster pumping up more at higher viscosity and rpm. So if your preload is already on the tight side that 50 wt will make it worse.

What he said.. I saw a motor with what appeared to have the same damage and the installed valve stem height was the problem.
Ihttp://www.s197forum.com/forum/sendmessage.php?do=sendtofriend&t=112767t's
Its the "collapsed adjuster gap" .018-.033.http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=112767

 

[DiMora]

That makes sense (collapsed adjuster gap)...are your heads FRPP? Did you check valve stem height or other valve train geometry? Why the low tension rings?

 

[gray06gt]

Your gonna have oil consumption after a cam swap due to the higher pressure in the cylinder so that's normal.

 

[BruceH]

www.deltacam.com can repair damaged cams, even when the cam manufacturer can't.

They will rebuild the lobe and finish to original profile. Several people on this forum have used them with good results. It's a whole lot less money than a new cam.

 

[05stroker]

www.deltacam.com can repair damaged cams, even when the cam manufacturer can't.

They will rebuild the lobe and finish to original profile. Several people on this forum have used them with good results. It's a whole lot less money than a new cam.

I still use the ones I bought, that you had repaired.

 

[ASRoff]

just out of curiosity I looked for aftermarket followers... looks like Jessel is not making 3v followers anymore..... Trickflow makes them....but they are stamped steel... although they do say they are "hardened" but cant find anything else that sepcifily says whats different about Trickflow vs. stock....

 

[BruceH]

just out of curiosity I looked for aftermarket followers... looks like Jessel is not making 3v followers anymore..... Trickflow makes them....but they are stamped steel... although they do say they are "hardened" but cant find anything else that sepcifily says whats different about Trickflow vs. stock....

Pretty sure that Trickflow are old stock Ford parts. I would go with Factory Ford parts over Trickflow but that's me.

 

[weather man]

just out of curiosity I looked for aftermarket followers... looks like Jessel is not making 3v followers anymore..... Trickflow makes them....but they are stamped steel... although they do say they are "hardened" but cant find anything else that sepcifily says whats different about Trickflow vs. stock....

I just bought Jesel through JDM. Not a cheap option.

 

[tigerhonaker]

just out of curiosity I looked for aftermarket followers... looks like Jessel is not making 3v followers anymore..... Trickflow makes them....but they are stamped steel... although they do say they are "hardened" but cant find anything else that sepcifily says whats different about Trickflow vs. stock....

Did you place a call to Jesel yourself to verify they don't still make them if you are willing to pay them to make a set ???

I would call them personally and talk with them and not rely on an outside source saying Jesel does not have them or produce them any longer.

I just called Jesel for you here is what you are wanting to know below.

http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/contact-us

http://www.jesel.com/valvetrain/index.php/followers

Part# OCF-83105 for the 3-valve S-197 engines.
Each Hydraulic Roller Follower is, $130.00 Dollars
A set of 24 for the 4.6 3-valve engine is, $3,120.00 dollars.
They assemble them once they receive the order and that takes 2 to 3 days.

If you want to talk to the same Jesel employee I just hung up talking to his name is (Rob).

I just bought Jesel through JDM. Not a cheap option.

Your right they are very-very-expensive but in their case I think we have gotten what we paid for with the Jesel followers.

T.

 

[05stroker]

These are one of those things I cannot make myself buy until I have a failure. Just me, I have spun the stock stuff to 7550 rpms for an entire season without issue.