Car didn't pass VA emissions - Green cats in my future?

[Juice]

CARB certifiex parts, like a cold air kit usually cost a lot more vs a non compliant intake.

As for the mini cats and non-foulers, I dont think they will work for a coyote. That OBD 2 minitoring is very sensitive. Worth a try, easy enough to put on. However, I also think that fails the visual inspection. So it depends on the inspection station.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

Knowing how anal retentive PA can be, I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if the mini cats and non foulers fail visual inspection. Just as you pointed out, it would all depend on the inspection station's discretion. Also if the inspection station in question would happen to go strictly by the book, any aftermarket cat which isn't considered a direct "OEM" replacement that is CARB certified can technically also fail under the visual inspection as well. As for non-carb cold air intakes go, I've never ran into any issues regarding state inspection, so there's really no concern for justifying the additional cost towards the purchase of a CARB certified CAI, to begin with anyhow lol. Getting back to the mini cat/non-foulers, I would tend to agree they may not work for a Coyote due to the more sophisticated technology of the ECM/OBDII monitoring but would work on the older 2005-10 4.6L 3 valve cars

 

[1950StangJump$]

OP, I'm in Northern VA. I just had Kooks Green cats welded in. They replaced 10 year old Kooks "high flow" cats.

The Green Cats are technically rated to 850HP for each side . . . although no one is claiming they will handle a 1700 HP car. But, for most street cars, they should be fine. I know that many won't trust that.

As for passing emissions, the supposedly won't trip a check engine light even with the rear O2s on. But, mine are off right now, but I will be testing this soon. The old "high flow" cats would trip the engine light if the O2s were on, which is why they're off now.

Also note, they have an EPA CARB stamp right on them . . . when I had them welded in, I had them positioned so that this stamp was clearly visible from under the car.

They ain't cheap . . . cheapest I found was Autoplicity. Then, you'll be in for the labor to have them put on.

 

[Juice]

CARB certified cats better not trip the light.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

OP, I'm in Northern VA. I just had Kooks Green cats welded in. They replaced 10 year old Kooks "high flow" cats.

The Green Cats are technically rated to 850HP for each side . . . although no one is claiming they will handle a 1700 HP car. But, for most street cars, they should be fine. I know that many won't trust that.

As for passing emissions, the supposedly won't trip a check engine light even with the rear O2s on. But, mine are off right now, but I will be testing this soon. The old "high flow" cats would trip the engine light if the O2s were on, which is why they're off now.

Also note, they have an EPA CARB stamp right on them . . . when I had them welded in, I had them positioned so that this stamp was clearly visible from under the car.

They ain't cheap . . . cheapest I found was Autoplicity. Then, you'll be in for the labor to have them put on.

Just as you said, supposedly they won't trip the check engine light and even more important, is whether they pass the OBDII state emissions test? If they fail OBDII emissions, then the EPA stamp doesn't mean a thing. Therefore, you won't know for certain if they trip the check engine light until having them tested and pass OBDII emissions. That being said, they are by no means inexpensive as you also brought up which is also an important factor to consider as well. Also just an FYI: the Green Cats are listed as EPA certified which does not fall under the same category as 49 state/50 state CARB legal certification does. Anyhow, just saying.

 

[Juice]

You have the warranty to fall back on if the EPA cats throw a light.
There are 2 types of CARB legal cats. 49 state and 50 (CA) state. More and more states are going to CA standards and the 49 state legal stuff is slowly going away. You can use a 50 state on all cars. You cannot use a 49 state converter on a 50 state emissions certified car.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

You have the warranty to fall back on if the EPA cats throw a light.
There are 2 types of CARB legal cats. 49 state and 50 (CA) state. More and more states are going to CA standards and the 49 state legal stuff is slowly going away. You can use a 50 state on all cars. You cannot use a 49 state converter on a 50 state emissions certified car.

So are the Green Cats 49 state or 50 state CARB legal cats? I don't recall any mention of either on the Kooks website

 

[Juice]

So are the Green Cats 49 state or 50 state CARB legal cats? I don't recall any mention of either on the Kooks website

That I dont know.
An educated guess would be 49.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

That I dont know.
An educated guess would be 49.

Just found out they are neither 49 or 50 state CARB legal. They have only an EPA certified number, not CARB certified number. Here's an excerpt description and link below taken from the Kooks website.

https://kooksheaders.com/catalytic-converter1608

WARNING: This product is not street legal and may only be used on Racing Vehicles. Racing Vehicles must be used exclusively for racing or other forms of competition. Racing vehicles must not be registered and must never be used on the street. It is illegal to install this product on a registered vehicle and use it on the street.

 

[GlassTop09]

Interesting reading here...………………...
As far as the Kooks Green Cats goes, the actual manufacturer of those cats, Global Emissions Systems Inc or GESI for short, says something different about their product. They say it is a Fed EPA certified 49 state legal hi HP cat (not CARB certified which would make it a 50 state legal cat). Watch these 2 YouTube videos, 1st is from Kooks the 2nd is from Vibrant, both use\provide the same GESI cats. Warning....gonna hear some marketing crosstalking going on between these 2 videos:

Now to switch gears to OBDII cat certification. The 1st item to understand is that an OBDII certified vehicle (like our S197's) do not measure cats for actual emissions output levels....they're measured for O2 storage\usage during oxidation w\ the premise that high O2 storage = high cat efficiency, low O2 storage = low cat efficiency as stated in this excert from a case study I found\read of catalytic converter operation & usage:
Now compare this w\ an excert from the Ford Workshop Manual describing how the OBDII cat efficiency coding works in these 05-10 S197's PCM:

This is why it's hard for most aftermarket cats to pass OBDII cat efficiency, they do not contain any cerium in the 1st catalyst brick to store the excess unburnt exhaust O2 (mostly have rhodium & palladium which are oxidizers that use O2 to break down HC & CO into CO2 & H2O--or in layman's terms burn the unburnt HC's up\force an extra O2 molecule to attach to the CO molecule to convert into CO2) so if there is excess O2 in the exhaust that can't be fully used up by the 2 cat substrate bricks it is picked up by the rear O2 sensor which will track w\ the front O2 sensor switching pattern enough to fail the cat efficiency switch ratio threshold number of .5-.6 for a min 92% efficiency thus set off the P0420\P0430 DTC's. The other reason that they have a hard time passing is due to most of them actually being too small (especially true when FI is used) as most are sized for the OEM equipped OEM tuned engine in NA configuration but are handicapped when the substrate cell size is increased to lower the flowing deltaP across them (reduces total effective treating substrate surface area).
They can be made to work & pass OBDII legally but the tune will need to take all this into account to ensure that the cats aren't hit w\ more excess exhaust O2 than they can actually use up during oxidation (which means that any\all vacuum leaks need to be repaired...including the EVAP system's operational integrity, the tune needs to not under report MAF calc's--another way to say this is that both bank's LTFT's need to either read 0% or slightly -% when in CL--not read +% w\ both bank's STFT's switching around 0% & AFR is still set @ 14.64 in tune, no real plug misfires going on causing excess unburnt O2 in exhaust & OL WOT AFR needs to stay >12.5 as they can't handle anything lower than this....which is almost a given, especially for FI applications). This usually puts limits on the HP\TQ output of the engines in order to make them pass legally that most aren't gonna want, but some of this can be countered to a certain extent by the choice of camshaft profiles used w\ the NA\FI engine (OL less than 42* advertised & if the cam EVC timings\VCT settings eliminate\limit EGR) or limiting the amount of boost used to not exceed 5-6 psi. The car WILL need to be equipped w\ the proper O2 sensor setup designed for the OBDII coding used in the PCM (a dedicated pre-cat, dedicated post-cat NB O2 sensor for 05-10 S197's, 11-14 S197's are different strategy due to using WB O2 sensors for front) & in good working order. This is important for the O2 sensor switching ratio to be as accurate as feasible as the 2 sensor types sample a different % of exhaust O2 volume due to the element shield size\porting differences. The front O2 sensor's switching rate & amplitude (time in ms the sine wave spends below the .450v line during each switch) is used by the PCM to calculate the amount of unburnt O2 volume in exhaust post combustion that is fed to the cats to use to promote oxidation of HC\CO present in exhaust.

To give a crude example of this OBDII process: the front O2 sensor for 1 cell needs to count 50 switches. For the switch ratio to be considered good the rear O2 switch count has to be at <25 switches w\ a shorter rise\fall pattern (amplitude) than the front O2 sensor to make a switch ratio threshold of .5. Another cell needs to see 70 front O2 sensor switches, the rear O2 sensor switch count needs to be <35 w\ a shorter switching amplitude to make the same threshold. The last cell needs to see 30 front O2 sensor switches, the rear O2 sensor switch count needs to be <15 w\ a shorter switching amplitude to make the same threshold. Then all avg'd out needs to come out <.5-.6 to pass OBDII cat efficiency as the .5 threshold equates to the min of 92% cat efficiency requirement of the 1.75 LEV Emissions std for the 05-10 S197 V8 cars as reported to the EPA by Ford at the time of manufacture. The lower the result from the switch ratio threshold the higher the cat's efficiency. The front O2 sensor's performance is just as important, if not more important, than the rear O2 sensor's performance for a cat to pass as well as the cat's own ability to use up all the unburnt O2 in the exhaust between the 2 O2 sensor positions while in CL operations.

So a perfectly good cat can fail an OBDII cert test in PCM if it is getting more O2 fed to it than it can use up...………………….. Thus the importance of cerium used in the 1st substrate brick...…& good proper maintenance along w\ a well fleshed out tune w\ cat operations in mind....not as an afterthought. See here:

Just trying to give some context to what is actually entailed for a cat to pass an OBDII cat certification test whether it is an OEM or aftermarket unit as programmed in these car's PCM. All a CEL eliminator is doing is attempting to artificially further reduce the exhaust O2 sample amount to the rear O2 sensor to slow it's switch rate\reduce it's amplitude further vs the front O2 sensor's switch rate\amplitude to get the cat switch ratio <.5-.6 threshold limit so the cat will pass OBDII in the PCM.....thus pass emissions. The flip side is that you can install an eliminator that is too large\too restrictive which can stall the rear O2 sensor from switching hardly at all causing a P0139\P0159 DTC (BxS2 O2 Sensor Slow to Respond) & these are illegal so keep this in mind if some do real visual compliance inspections.....which I'm sure most in here already know this.

Sorry for the long posting...……………………...

 

[Juice]

With the 11-14 cars. Any changes to the OBD parameters in the tume, either does nothing and.codes show up anyway, or the monitor just does not run.
As I said earlier, Ford got pretty smart about tampering by this time. I know there are more parameters at work than what is mapped out in HP tuners or SCT.

Note: All my experiments are for educational purposes only.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

Interesting reading here...………………...
As far as the Kooks Green Cats goes, the actual manufacturer of those cats, Global Emissions Systems Inc or GESI for short, says something different about their product. They say it is a Fed EPA certified 49 state legal hi HP cat (not CARB certified which would make it a 50 state legal cat). Watch these 2 YouTube videos, 1st is from Kooks the 2nd is from Vibrant, both use\provide the same GESI cats. Warning....gonna hear some marketing crosstalking going on between these 2 videos:

Now to switch gears to OBDII cat certification. The 1st item to understand is that an OBDII certified vehicle (like our S197's) do not measure cats for actual emissions output levels....they're measured for O2 storage\usage during oxidation w\ the premise that high O2 storage = high cat efficiency, low O2 storage = low cat efficiency as stated in this excert from a case study I found\read of catalytic converter operation & usage:View attachment 72647
Now compare this w\ an excert from the Ford Workshop Manual describing how the OBDII cat efficiency coding works in these 05-10 S197's PCM:
View attachment 72648
This is why it's hard for most aftermarket cats to pass OBDII cat efficiency, they do not contain any cerium in the 1st catalyst brick to store the excess unburnt exhaust O2 (mostly have rhodium & palladium which are oxidizers that use O2 to break down HC & CO into CO2 & H2O--or in layman's terms burn the unburnt HC's up\force an extra O2 molecule to attach to the CO molecule to convert into CO2) so if there is excess O2 in the exhaust that can't be fully used up by the 2 cat substrate bricks it is picked up by the rear O2 sensor which will track w\ the front O2 sensor switching pattern enough to fail the cat efficiency switch ratio threshold number of .5-.6 for a min 92% efficiency thus set off the P0420\P0430 DTC's. The other reason that they have a hard time passing is due to most of them actually being too small (especially true when FI is used) as most are sized for the OEM equipped OEM tuned engine in NA configuration but are handicapped when the substrate cell size is increased to lower the flowing deltaP across them (reduces total effective treating substrate surface area).
They can be made to work & pass OBDII legally but the tune will need to take all this into account to ensure that the cats aren't hit w\ more excess exhaust O2 than they can actually use up during oxidation (which means that any\all vacuum leaks need to be repaired...including the EVAP system's operational integrity, the tune needs to not under report MAF calc's--another way to say this is that both bank's LTFT's need to either read 0% or slightly -% when in CL--not read +% w\ both bank's STFT's switching around 0% & AFR is still set @ 14.64 in tune, no real plug misfires going on causing excess unburnt O2 in exhaust & OL WOT AFR needs to stay >12.5 as they can't handle anything lower than this....which is almost a given, especially for FI applications). This usually puts limits on the HP\TQ output of the engines in order to make them pass legally that most aren't gonna want, but some of this can be countered to a certain extent by the choice of camshaft profiles used w\ the NA\FI engine (OL less than 42* advertised & if the cam EVC timings\VCT settings eliminate\limit EGR) or limiting the amount of boost used to not exceed 5-6 psi. The car WILL need to be equipped w\ the proper O2 sensor setup designed for the OBDII coding used in the PCM (a dedicated pre-cat, dedicated post-cat NB O2 sensor for 05-10 S197's, 11-14 S197's are different strategy due to using WB O2 sensors for front) & in good working order. This is important for the O2 sensor switching ratio to be as accurate as feasible as the 2 sensor types sample a different % of exhaust O2 volume due to the element shield size\porting differences. The front O2 sensor's switching rate & amplitude (time in ms the sine wave spends below the .450v line during each switch) is used by the PCM to calculate the amount of unburnt O2 volume in exhaust post combustion that is fed to the cats to use to promote oxidation of HC\CO present in exhaust.

To give a crude example of this OBDII process: the front O2 sensor for 1 cell needs to count 50 switches. For the switch ratio to be considered good the rear O2 switch count has to be at <25 switches w\ a shorter rise\fall pattern (amplitude) than the front O2 sensor to make a switch ratio threshold of .5. Another cell needs to see 70 front O2 sensor switches, the rear O2 sensor switch count needs to be <35 w\ a shorter switching amplitude to make the same threshold. The last cell needs to see 30 front O2 sensor switches, the rear O2 sensor switch count needs to be <15 w\ a shorter switching amplitude to make the same threshold. Then all avg'd out needs to come out <.5-.6 to pass OBDII cat efficiency as the .5 threshold equates to the min of 92% cat efficiency requirement of the 1.75 LEV Emissions std for the 05-10 S197 V8 cars as reported to the EPA by Ford at the time of manufacture. The lower the result from the switch ratio threshold the higher the cat's efficiency. The front O2 sensor's performance is just as important, if not more important, than the rear O2 sensor's performance for a cat to pass as well as the cat's own ability to use up all the unburnt O2 in the exhaust between the 2 O2 sensor positions while in CL operations.

So a perfectly good cat can fail an OBDII cert test in PCM if it is getting more O2 fed to it than it can use up...………………….. Thus the importance of cerium used in the 1st substrate brick...…& good proper maintenance along w\ a well fleshed out tune w\ cat operations in mind....not as an afterthought. See here: View attachment 72649

Just trying to give some context to what is actually entailed for a cat to pass an OBDII cat certification test whether it is an OEM or aftermarket unit as programmed in these car's PCM. All a CEL eliminator is doing is attempting to artificially further reduce the exhaust O2 sample amount to the rear O2 sensor to slow it's switch rate\reduce it's amplitude further vs the front O2 sensor's switch rate\amplitude to get the cat switch ratio <.5-.6 threshold limit so the cat will pass OBDII in the PCM.....thus pass emissions. The flip side is that you can install an eliminator that is too large\too restrictive which can stall the rear O2 sensor from switching hardly at all causing a P0139\P0159 DTC (BxS2 O2 Sensor Slow to Respond) & these are illegal so keep this in mind if some do real visual compliance inspections.....which I'm sure most in here already know this.

Sorry for the long posting...……………………...

First, thanks for the info you provided as I found it very useful to say the very least. Although the actual manufacturer, Global Emissions Systems Inc. claim their cats are EPA certified 49 state legal, Kooks clearly states on their website.. WARNING: This product is not street legal and may only be used on Racing Vehicles. Racing Vehicles must be used exclusively for racing or other forms of competition. Racing vehicles must not be registered and must never be used on the street. It is illegal to install this product on a registered vehicle and use it on the street. https://kooksheaders.com/catalytic-converter1608

Anyhow just as you stated, it does appear there is marketing cross talking going on between Vibrant Performance and Kooks Headers. Also note that Vibrant Performance has since ended their partnership with GESI and is no longer a distributor of their catalyst products. Therefore until there's actual documentation that the "Green Cats" pass OBDII emissions testing on the 2005-10 (S197) cars? I'll continue to go by the product warning stated on Kooks website rather than rely on a bunch of marketing hype claims lol.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

GlassTop09.. Just discovered that G-Sport Emissions Systems has taken over the partnership with GESI from Vibrant Performance. Anyhow, here's the link provided below if interested?

https://gsportbygesi.com/high-perfo...rters/g-sport-catalytic-converter-technology/

 

[07 Boss]

Interesting reading here...………………...
As far as the Kooks Green Cats goes, the actual manufacturer of those cats, Global Emissions Systems Inc or GESI for short, says something different about their product. They say it is a Fed EPA certified 49 state legal hi HP cat (not CARB certified which would make it a 50 state legal cat). Watch these 2 YouTube videos, 1st is from Kooks the 2nd is from Vibrant, both use\provide the same GESI cats. Warning....gonna hear some marketing crosstalking going on between these 2 videos:

Now to switch gears to OBDII cat certification. The 1st item to understand is that an OBDII certified vehicle (like our S197's) do not measure cats for actual emissions output levels....they're measured for O2 storage\usage during oxidation w\ the premise that high O2 storage = high cat efficiency, low O2 storage = low cat efficiency as stated in this excert from a case study I found\read of catalytic converter operation & usage:View attachment 72647
Now compare this w\ an excert from the Ford Workshop Manual describing how the OBDII cat efficiency coding works in these 05-10 S197's PCM:
View attachment 72648
This is why it's hard for most aftermarket cats to pass OBDII cat efficiency, they do not contain any cerium in the 1st catalyst brick to store the excess unburnt exhaust O2 (mostly have rhodium & palladium which are oxidizers that use O2 to break down HC & CO into CO2 & H2O--or in layman's terms burn the unburnt HC's up\force an extra O2 molecule to attach to the CO molecule to convert into CO2) so if there is excess O2 in the exhaust that can't be fully used up by the 2 cat substrate bricks it is picked up by the rear O2 sensor which will track w\ the front O2 sensor switching pattern enough to fail the cat efficiency switch ratio threshold number of .5-.6 for a min 92% efficiency thus set off the P0420\P0430 DTC's. The other reason that they have a hard time passing is due to most of them actually being too small (especially true when FI is used) as most are sized for the OEM equipped OEM tuned engine in NA configuration but are handicapped when the substrate cell size is increased to lower the flowing deltaP across them (reduces total effective treating substrate surface area).
They can be made to work & pass OBDII legally but the tune will need to take all this into account to ensure that the cats aren't hit w\ more excess exhaust O2 than they can actually use up during oxidation (which means that any\all vacuum leaks need to be repaired...including the EVAP system's operational integrity, the tune needs to not under report MAF calc's--another way to say this is that both bank's LTFT's need to either read 0% or slightly -% when in CL--not read +% w\ both bank's STFT's switching around 0% & AFR is still set @ 14.64 in tune, no real plug misfires going on causing excess unburnt O2 in exhaust & OL WOT AFR needs to stay >12.5 as they can't handle anything lower than this....which is almost a given, especially for FI applications). This usually puts limits on the HP\TQ output of the engines in order to make them pass legally that most aren't gonna want, but some of this can be countered to a certain extent by the choice of camshaft profiles used w\ the NA\FI engine (OL less than 42* advertised & if the cam EVC timings\VCT settings eliminate\limit EGR) or limiting the amount of boost used to not exceed 5-6 psi. The car WILL need to be equipped w\ the proper O2 sensor setup designed for the OBDII coding used in the PCM (a dedicated pre-cat, dedicated post-cat NB O2 sensor for 05-10 S197's, 11-14 S197's are different strategy due to using WB O2 sensors for front) & in good working order. This is important for the O2 sensor switching ratio to be as accurate as feasible as the 2 sensor types sample a different % of exhaust O2 volume due to the element shield size\porting differences. The front O2 sensor's switching rate & amplitude (time in ms the sine wave spends below the .450v line during each switch) is used by the PCM to calculate the amount of unburnt O2 volume in exhaust post combustion that is fed to the cats to use to promote oxidation of HC\CO present in exhaust.

To give a crude example of this OBDII process: the front O2 sensor for 1 cell needs to count 50 switches. For the switch ratio to be considered good the rear O2 switch count has to be at <25 switches w\ a shorter rise\fall pattern (amplitude) than the front O2 sensor to make a switch ratio threshold of .5. Another cell needs to see 70 front O2 sensor switches, the rear O2 sensor switch count needs to be <35 w\ a shorter switching amplitude to make the same threshold. The last cell needs to see 30 front O2 sensor switches, the rear O2 sensor switch count needs to be <15 w\ a shorter switching amplitude to make the same threshold. Then all avg'd out needs to come out <.5-.6 to pass OBDII cat efficiency as the .5 threshold equates to the min of 92% cat efficiency requirement of the 1.75 LEV Emissions std for the 05-10 S197 V8 cars as reported to the EPA by Ford at the time of manufacture. The lower the result from the switch ratio threshold the higher the cat's efficiency. The front O2 sensor's performance is just as important, if not more important, than the rear O2 sensor's performance for a cat to pass as well as the cat's own ability to use up all the unburnt O2 in the exhaust between the 2 O2 sensor positions while in CL operations.

So a perfectly good cat can fail an OBDII cert test in PCM if it is getting more O2 fed to it than it can use up...………………….. Thus the importance of cerium used in the 1st substrate brick...…& good proper maintenance along w\ a well fleshed out tune w\ cat operations in mind....not as an afterthought. See here: View attachment 72649

Just trying to give some context to what is actually entailed for a cat to pass an OBDII cat certification test whether it is an OEM or aftermarket unit as programmed in these car's PCM. All a CEL eliminator is doing is attempting to artificially further reduce the exhaust O2 sample amount to the rear O2 sensor to slow it's switch rate\reduce it's amplitude further vs the front O2 sensor's switch rate\amplitude to get the cat switch ratio <.5-.6 threshold limit so the cat will pass OBDII in the PCM.....thus pass emissions. The flip side is that you can install an eliminator that is too large\too restrictive which can stall the rear O2 sensor from switching hardly at all causing a P0139\P0159 DTC (BxS2 O2 Sensor Slow to Respond) & these are illegal so keep this in mind if some do real visual compliance inspections.....which I'm sure most in here already know this.

Sorry for the long posting...……………………...

 

[07 Boss]

Not to throw another wrench in the mix and these will never pass anything but an OBD test but I made these a few years ago and they worked for a couple inspections until water intrusion occurred and then I went with the mini cat sims. These will only work on the 4.6. But basically it is just a resistor and capacitor that is wired into the return signal for the sensor. Apparently it mimics the amplitude and frequency of properly working rear sensors. I can remember the exact components and I can't remember where I saw this fix but it worked for a couple of years before they failed. I'm sure if I would have built them better with some better waterproofing I would still be using them today.

 

[GlassTop09]

First, thanks for the info you provided as I found it very useful to say the very least. Although the actual manufacturer, Global Emissions Systems Inc. claim their cats are EPA certified 49 state legal, Kooks clearly states on their website.. WARNING: This product is not street legal and may only be used on Racing Vehicles. Racing Vehicles must be used exclusively for racing or other forms of competition. Racing vehicles must not be registered and must never be used on the street. It is illegal to install this product on a registered vehicle and use it on the street. https://kooksheaders.com/catalytic-converter1608

Anyhow just as you stated, it does appear there is marketing cross talking going on between Vibrant Performance and Kooks Headers. Also note that Vibrant Performance has since ended their partnership with GESI and is no longer a distributor of their catalyst products. Therefore until there's actual documentation that the "Green Cats" pass OBDII emissions testing on the 2005-10 (S197) cars? I'll continue to go by the product warning stated on Kooks website rather than rely on a bunch of marketing hype claims lol.

Also there is marketing cross talking going on w\ the founder of GESI as well (the same guy in both videos rep'ing GESI). In 1 video (the Vibrant one) he says that their cats are tested & approved Fed EPA 49 state legal....and the engraving of the Fed EPA certification # on the cat housing is proof of this & he gives the specific Fed EPA lab in CA that did the testing. Then in the Kooks video he didn't stand up for any of this work (which you're paying for as a customer) to hold to his product's stds including the EPA certification it is supposed to have….regardless of what Kooks says about it, because as long as Kooks doesn't do anything to physically alter the original design of the cat it's EPA rating should carry w\ it as Kooks didn't DESIGN it, only is USING it & if you look at the Kooks version, the very same EPA verification number is also engraved on them by the GESI label, not the Kooks label. So you gonna pay the premium for having the proper GESI designed, Fed EPA-certified cat that is supposed to be good up to 800 HP (or roughly about 8,000 lbs of exhaust at roughly a 11.5 AFR per 4 cyl bank) that then Kooks isn't gonna honor the EPA certification that comes w\ it but will gladly CHARGE you for it. If this were me I wouldn't sell it to them as it is wrong morally, not necessarily ILLEGAL from the way the governing laws are written, just to make a buck.
This is why I won't buy them from Kooks or from anyone who sells the GESI cats....if I'm gonna pay that much for them they're damn sure gonna stand up to what the product is shown they're rated\certified to.

If you ain't got the integrity to do that in a video infomercial w\ a customer you're selling your product to then you also won't honor your own work you said you have legally done & have the necessary documentation in hand to prove it cause you don't go thru the cost of getting a product certified by the Fed EPA & they don't give you the documentation that verifies that it is as THAT is a MAIN MARKETING selling point regardless of whom is using it w\ their products……….

This the other side of marketing cross talk that I see that is coming from the source (GESI), irrespective of what Kooks or Vibrant is adding.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

Also there is marketing cross talking going on w\ the founder of GESI as well (the same guy in both videos rep'ing GESI). In 1 video (the Vibrant one) he says that their cats are tested & approved Fed EPA 49 state legal....and the engraving of the Fed EPA certification # on the cat housing is proof of this & he gives the specific Fed EPA lab in CA that did the testing. Then in the Kooks video he didn't stand up for any of this work (which you're paying for as a customer) to hold to his product's stds including the EPA certification it is supposed to have….regardless of what Kooks says about it, because as long as Kooks doesn't do anything to physically alter the original design of the cat it's EPA rating should carry w\ it as Kooks didn't DESIGN it, only is USING it & if you look at the Kooks version, the very same EPA verification number is also engraved on them by the GESI label, not the Kooks label. So you gonna pay the premium for having the proper GESI designed, Fed EPA-certified cat that is supposed to be good up to 800 HP (or roughly about 8,000 lbs of exhaust at roughly a 11.5 AFR per 4 cyl bank) that then Kooks isn't gonna honor the EPA certification that comes w\ it but will gladly CHARGE you for it. If this were me I wouldn't sell it to them as it is wrong morally, not necessarily ILLEGAL from the way the governing laws are written, just to make a buck.
This is why I won't buy them from Kooks or from anyone who sells the GESI cats....if I'm gonna pay that much for them they're damn sure gonna stand up to what the product is shown they're rated\certified to.

If you ain't got the integrity to do that in a video infomercial w\ a customer you're selling your product to then you also won't honor your own work you said you have legally done & have the necessary documentation in hand to prove it cause you don't go thru the cost of getting a product certified by the Fed EPA & they don't give you the documentation that verifies that it is as THAT is a MAIN MARKETING selling point regardless of whom is using it w\ their products……….

This the other side of marketing cross talk that I see that is coming from the source (GESI), irrespective of what Kooks or Vibrant is adding.

I totally agree 100% when it comes to the GESI founder being contradictive in his video presentations between Vibrant Performance and Kooks headers. If what the GESI founder claims the Fed EPA lab in California did the actual testing, then where is the actual test results/proof documented in writing from the Fed EPA lab that confirms the GESI cats are indeed Fed EPA certified? Could this very well be the reason the GESI founder failed to mention anything in his Kooks video about all the EPA tests that were done along with the EPA certification they're supposed to have? Perhaps it's just me, but I don't recall seeing any actual proof documented in writing that the GESI cats have been certified by the Fed EPA. At any rate, until seeing actual proof documented in writing that Kooks will honor the supposed Fed EPA certification the GESI cats come with in addition to passing OBDII emissions testing? No way in hell am I going to fork over $350.00+per cat for their product, as I'd much rather take my chances by adding non-foulers to high-flow cats for much less lol.

 

[Juice]

Non foulers fail the visual inspection. That is the only problem for inspection.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

Non foulers fail the visual inspection. That is the only problem for inspection.

Chances are the "Green Cats" fail visual inspection as well, especially with no actual proof from the EPA they're 49 state legal/certified. Anyway, I meant to say "mini cat sims" which 07Boss has on his car rather than non-foulers, but knowing PA, they'll more than likely not pass visual inspection either lol.

 

[Juice]

I have never seen the PA inspection check for anything more than "are the converters on there", and scan OBD with the machine. Just sayin'.
But yes, no cert stamp on converter would be a "fail".