Caveat Emptor.... Livernois Heads (Pic heavy)

[Back@itagain]

Mike,

Since you are chiming in I was wondering if you wouldn't mind answering a couple questions with some specifics and not just "our ports flat work and win races".

What are the current dimensions of the intake ports on the 3 valve stage III head?

When did the most current CNC program start?

What are the pros and cons of having a larger port than the manifold?

How much boost and vacuum should the OEM o-ring be able to hold back if the port is encroaching on the o-ring?

Have you guys seen any performance gains between the new and old castings?

Thanks

Brian

 

[dysan]

DIdn't Lito just have some problems with this Livernois heads?

Yup..he had the stage 3 heads and they were smoking a ton. He ended up going with FRPP heads but now he's dealing with another issue unfortunately(not with the heads though).

 

[FalconGTHO]

My take on this, esp since some of those pics I took, is that Tre has to trust Livernois to "make it right". Its up to Tres machine shop tech to box up and ship all the stuff back to MI. At Tres expense no less. Then after "conducting an investigation", the outcome of which is NOT guaranteed to be favorable to Tre, Livernois will have a solution or not. "Yes, we can/will fix this. No, we cant/wont." Given all the background, its not being a dick saying its likely the latter will be the response. So then Tre is out shipping, out likely another month of build time and STILL has to get his shit fixed or replaced.

Even if Livernois DOES say, "Yes, we can fix it" again, given the history, the confidence level is low. And there will still be a loss of a month of build time.

A third option which hasnt been posted is that Livernios covers w/e repair bill results from Tres machine shop which saves valuable build time and allows for Tre to have renewed confidence in the build. After that Livernois washes their hands of it and Tre is on his own or the new shop is on the hook. Problem (hopefully) solved.

 

[AnotherS197GT]

My take on this, esp since some of those pics I took, is that Tre has to trust Livernois to "make it right". Its up to Tres machine shop tech to box up and ship all the stuff back to MI. At Tres expense no less. Then after "conducting an investigation", the outcome of which is NOT guaranteed to be favorable to Tre, Livernois will have a solution or not. "Yes, we can/will fix this. No, we cant/wont." Given all the background, its not being a dick saying its likely the latter will be the response. So then Tre is out shipping, out likely another month of build time and STILL has to get his shit fixed or replaced.

Even if Livernois DOES say, "Yes, we can fix it" again, given the history, the confidence level is low. And there will still be a loss of a month of build time.

A third option which hasnt been posted is that Livernios covers w/e repair bill results from Tres machine shop which saves valuable build time and allows for Tre to have renewed confidence in the build. After that Livernois washes their hands of it and Tre is on his own or the new shop is on the hook. Problem (hopefully) solved.

If they actually paid to make their mistakes right, they might not able to afford to get burger king for lunch!

 

[ford20]

All I can say is wow and holy burning bushes batman! Still can't get past it being a livernois issue. They were on my top 3 reputable places to buy my future N/A stroker build from, tied in close 2nd with BBR. Seems SHM may make the #1 spot. I want to buy from people who will stand by not only their products but their customers as well. But not even an extra kudos of gratitude towards a customer who also lays his life down to protect the liberties to allow a business to continue to do business freely, fvcking shamefull just on principal.

Just curious, doesn't SHM have a negative review? I was looking at some of their parts but saw that they had a negative review and was dismayed by them.

Sorry OP for bring your thread off track

 

[BlackSunshine]

 

[BullittWow]

Yup..he had the stage 3 heads and they were smoking a ton. He ended up going with FRPP heads but now he's dealing with another issue unfortunately(not with the heads though).

Doesn't Livernois port the heads for Ford Racing also?

 

[ethic1]

O man I have Livernois heads as well.....early model ones

 

[BlackSunshine]

Just curious, doesn't SHM have a negative review? I was looking at some of their parts but saw that they had a negative review and was dismayed by them.

Sorry OP for bring your thread off track

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/f166/sean-hyland-motorsports-87692/

I've heard bad things about Mr. Hyland, but not from first hand experience. Google will find you a few opinions.

 

[lito]

Doesn't Livernois port the heads for Ford Racing also?

AFAIK yes, I just wanted a ready set with stock guides, the 3VPA ones are cnc'd but with stock guides and components.

I had two issues with Livernois stage III heads, one is that on the first set, driver's side came broken beyond repair locally.

The replacement driver's head (and the passenger's that was already here) have guide issues, first thing we checked were that the seals, that came out as someone pictured here:

www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47473

So, I changed all the seals with the engine to see how it behaves, the thing was the same. Livernois recognized they had some guides issues.

Took engine out and replaced heads with 3VPA with 26125's and no more oil. Scoped the engine for checkup due to a phaser failure I had recently and there is no more oil anywhere.

BTW, Mike, is still open the offer to receive the heads to try to repair the broken and the guides on the other so I could recover something of the 4.500$ I am down as of now? Think I have found a way to ship them back

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/f166/sean-hyland-motorsports-87692/

I've heard bad things about Mr. Hyland, but not from first hand experience. Google will find you a few opinions.

I can give you 1st, 2nd, 3rd... hand opinions on SHM.

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

Ive been talking to Mike @ Livernois all day today....

He told me that they had casting problems with some of their earlier heads. He wants me to ship the heads back to them. It is my understanding after talking with Mike that once Livernois takes a look and makes a determination that they will repair the heads or if it is a casting issue they will send me a new set.

My fear is that it is a casting issue and if I have the machine shop they are at now repair the guides, valve job, etc eventually this will happen again. If it is a problem with the casting (which I think it is) the geometry is off. If I have the machine shop repair them without letting Livernois get their chance to make it right first and they fail again, I cannot in good conscience blame Livernois or expect them to take care of the problem.

After talking to Mike I am having the heads, cams, everything boxed up and shipped to Livernois.

I will post results when I get them. Bottom line is I want this fixed and I want to know why this is happening. I have too much money tied up in this short block.

 

[BruceH]

I would think the valves wouldn't of cut into the seats correctly if the valve guide bore was off. At the very least it would be noticeable when looking at the chambers and wouldn't pass a visual inspection.

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

You would think so Bruce. I also wonder if it has anything to do with the bronze guides and a lack of clearence, heat, expansion, etc..

 

[Mike K]

Looks like when time comes for me I'm using fox lake.

 

[Fullboogie]

I think you're doing the right thing.

Ive been talking to Mike @ Livernois all day today....

He told me that they had casting problems with some of their earlier heads. He wants me to ship the heads back to them. It is my understanding after talking with Mike that once Livernois takes a look and makes a determination that they will repair the heads or if it is a casting issue they will send me a new set.

My fear is that it is a casting issue and if I have the machine shop they are at now repair the guides, valve job, etc eventually this will happen again. If it is a problem with the casting (which I think it is) the geometry is off. If I have the machine shop repair them without letting Livernois get their chance to make it right first and they fail again, I cannot in good conscience blame Livernois or expect them to take care of the problem.

After talking to Mike I am having the heads, cams, everything boxed up and shipped to Livernois.

I will post results when I get them. Bottom line is I want this fixed and I want to know why this is happening. I have too much money tied up in this short block.

 

[TurboX]

To OP,Lito and Mike:

Can you tell me what heads you guys have ? I have a 2010 GT with very low miles. I installed my Hellion kit on the car with less than 3000 miles and after it was tuned I was making 550RWHP. I drove the car for 2000 miles and then put in a built short block, at the time I had a local machine shop do a valve job and I upgraded my springs and valves. I got about 5000 miles on the car before I had a unrelated issue caused me to replace the short block. Since I was now adding cams, I took the heads back to machine shop and I received a call. The machine shop said that I was lucky I pulled the motor apart because my valves were beaten and at any moment they were gonna seize and drop a valve.

Speaking to the machine shop, he noticed they had put bronze liners the 1st time they got the heads. Apparently my guides were in bad shape the 1st time I took them in, now 5000 miles later and they were in bad shape again. I spoke to John Mihovitz and Michael@ L&M and both told me to use stock guides. Originally the machine shop chalked it up to bonze liners being a bad idea but that didn't explain why my guides were damaged with only 5000 miles on the new car.

BTW- Tre, thank you for your service

I am now very scared, I have a ticking time bomb. My motor is about to fire for the 1st time tomorrow and Im looking at making between 750-850RWHP. Is it possible this issue isn't a Livornois issue but more a issue where Ford had a bad batch of heads manufactured ?

 

[Tre06GTP1SC]

Thanks Buzz. I have the Stage II heads. They had bronze guides. The more I talk to people in the know and research on the net, I think the bronze guides and clearances are the problem.

I read an article that discussed bronze guides and tolerances that specifically talked about exhaust valves and the problems with heat and expansion. The article was written about bronze guides in cast iron heads but the symptoms he described were eerily similiar to mine. The article can be read here. If you have the chance this is a very interesting read.

I think Livernois has realized the problem. Dave Ameduri (livernois) told me Stage II heads do not have bronze guides in them. Well I have pictures that prove them wrong.

When I sent the orginal failure back to them (passenger side head, pics in post #1) you can see the bronze guides. When they sent the head back they had been replaced with cast iron oem guides. Looking at the drivers side head (bronze guides) the failure is similar to the original.

My advice is to stay away from the bronze guides. They aren't worth the money or the trouble.

 

[retfr8flyr]

When I did my last engine build I had my heads worked on at the machine shop. The guy that does heads at this shop is one of the better head guys on the east coast. I was going to have a full port job and bronze guides installed but was told not to do it. The shop told me that the only head problems they have had with the 3v are from bronze guides and they don't recommend them. He also told me that the heads flow so well that just a clean up of the bowels and some short turn radius work was the best bang for the buck. He only recommends a full port job on a N/A setup that is looking for the absolute max flow.


Earl

 

[08StangGT_CS]

My Livernois heads came in today!

 

[Marc s]

I would think the valves wouldn't of cut into the seats correctly if the valve guide bore was off. At the very least it would be noticeable when looking at the chambers and wouldn't pass a visual inspection.

I tend to agree with you Bruce. In my experience, The geometry would have to be significantly off for valves to bend. This would be noticable during seat grinding, assembly and final vacuum testing.

You would think so Bruce. I also wonder if it has anything to do with the bronze guides and a lack of clearence, heat, expansion, etc..

Obviously I haven't looked at the heads in person. However, to me, it looks like the clearance between the valve guide and the valves were too tight. This caused the valve to seize in the guide. The valve hung open, the valve hit the piston, bent the valve, and then broke the guide. You can see the witness marks on the piston. Are you running E85 by chance?