cortex watts link

[JimIII@JDM]

Actually not that interesting from a technical or engineering perspective. Profit margin had more to do with the JDM decision to sell one product vs. another. One simple statistic is how many design flaws and product recalls did Whiteline have with their suspension products (LCA, UCA and watts link) vs. Fays2/Steeda? JDM claims in this instance are pure marketing BS; especially with "straighter launches on the drag strip". LOL! Without a set of objective data to compare the various alternatives, you have to rely on design geometry, physics and logic to compare and contrast how one option performs vs. another in a road course environment.

We do not make any claims of the WL product vs. another Watts Link design, only vs. stock. We do not sell or have ever sold the Fays 2 or the Steeda although we sell a lot of Steeda components. We are not the only dealer selling White line products, there have been hundreds of White Line units sold with out any issues that I have been aware of. I know that White line is in the current process of improving the design on their Watts link even further. Says a lot about a company who is always striving to improve on their products. We don't like the Fays watts link because it clamps to the axle tubes and tends to shift and move. I've seen more than a few cars on our lift that have had this system and we had to re-adjust the axle clamps. The Steeda unit, I have seen more than a few come in and look like they were under sea for the last 100 years installed on the titanic, completely rusted out! The bushings were all cracked and destroyed as well. We do live in the North east where road salt and snow will destroy suspension and under body components but I haven't had any issue with other brands doing this...As far as drag strip testing, you guys are the corner carvers we are the drag racers. In drag testing the Watts Link versus stock suspension setup with PHB we saw a reduction of nearly .5 tenth of a second in 60' foot times on a 2006 Saleen Mustang we used to drag race and more consistency in the 60' foot times. This was using a Saleen Watts link, very similar design to the Whiteline. The car we tested ran mid 11's and made about 475 RWHP on Drag Radials. It ran the watts link suspension for 4+ years with out every having any issues and this was the original design that was claimed to be faulty. The Watts link distributes the weight transfer evenly as opposed to the panhard design that is allowing more weight to be placed over the top of the passenger side rear wheel. Now the Dopes at JDM don't recommend this for a 9 second 700 RWHP car at the drag strip, an extreme anti roll bar from BMR would be best choice. The watts link is one hell of an upgrade for a street car that goes to the drag strip and possibly road coarse which ever brand you decide to go with. Our choice of Whiteline versus other brands is based on our opinion and experience with other units, not profit margin. With certain "vendors" price whoring the White Line brand I think we would do better off selling on of the other mentioned brands

JimIII

 

[Roadracer350]

Baffles me how Terry Fair beats on all his WL equipment..yet never reports any failures. I highly suspect being a WL dealer, we would never find out anyway.... but I may be wrong.


I have said this MANY times before that the Whiteline unit is a solid piece but people STILL bitch and moan about it. Not sure if because the comp is based in Australia or what but most of the parts are made in the US. I have talked to Terry and Whiteline before I purchased my parts and IMO unless theirs a mfg defect, improper install or a flat out crash this unit is just as good as a Griggs or Cortex. It may not have as much roll center adj but it still performs great.

 

[Pentalab]

I read someplace that folks were breaking the center propeller bolt on the steeda watts links. I think I read this in one of Terry Fair's endless blogs. Something about a boxful of broken center steeda bolts. The center bolt literally sheared.

As far as the WL watts link and drag racing. I found that the combo of the WL watts link + eaton tru-trac... (both installed the same day) resulted in the car launching straighter. The back end feels..."more planted". That combo is a definite improvement.

Jimbo

 

[NoTicket]

Jim,

Were you the ones that installed the Fays2? I ask because it is just as likely that they were installed in the incorrect location and did not actually slip. That being said, it is not outside the realm of possibility that it slipped. I'm looking for actual info and not a bunch of speculation.

When I put mine on I will put some silver paint witness lines on the axle to see if anything moves around.

 

[sheizasosay]

Baffles me how Terry Fair beats on all his WL equipment..yet never reports any failures. I highly suspect being a WL dealer, we would never find out anyway.... but I may be wrong.


I have said this MANY times before that the Whiteline unit is a solid piece but people STILL bitch and moan about it. Not sure if because the comp is based in Australia or what but most of the parts are made in the US. I have talked to Terry and Whiteline before I purchased my parts and IMO unless theirs a mfg defect, improper install or a flat out crash this unit is just as good as a Griggs or Cortex. It may not have as much roll center adj but it still performs great.

It baffled a lot more people of why they didn't say ANYTHING in the thread on the Whiteline unit failing. They posted in the thread. They are aware of the thread. The only posts they made (Modernbeat) had to do with a neat bottom mounted watts and never addressed anything about known failures or even about their own car.

 

[Roadracer350]

IMO proabbly because since they are the major Whiteline dealer and a huge part on this board they didn't want to get into a pissing match with all the WL haters (i did that job for them) and as a business they didn't sell it to them so they prolly wanted to see what happened. Plus i dont think they had seen this happen either. I was bitching enough I guess! LOL!

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Jim,

Were you the ones that installed the Fays2? I ask because it is just as likely that they were installed in the incorrect location and did not actually slip. That being said, it is not outside the realm of possibility that it slipped. I'm looking for actual info and not a bunch of speculation.

When I put mine on I will put some silver paint witness lines on the axle to see if anything moves around.

We have never sold or installed a Fays 2 kit. I have seen a handful of them come in, some had the clamps welded to the axle tubes...others were shifted and misaligned. Good idea marking the axle to see if there is any movement!

 

[dontlifttoshift]

...As far as drag strip testing, you guys are the corner carvers we are the drag racers. In drag testing the Watts Link versus stock suspension setup with PHB we saw a reduction of nearly .5 tenth of a second in 60' foot times on a 2006 Saleen Mustang we used to drag race and more consistency in the 60' foot times. This was using a Saleen Watts link, very similar design to the Whiteline. The car we tested ran mid 11's and made about 475 RWHP on Drag Radials.

JimIII

For clarification, is that 5 tenths of a second or half of a tenth? In other words is it "point 5" or "point zero 5"?

Out of curiosity, was this testing done on the same day?

 

[JimIII@JDM]

For clarification, is that 5 tenths of a second or half of a tenth? In other words is it "point 5" or "point zero 5"?

Out of curiosity, was this testing done on the same day?

half of a tenth, which is a big drop in 60' Elapsed time. The car would average low 1.7's and after the watts link was consistently 1.65-1.70

 

[NoTicket]

We have never sold or installed a Fays 2 kit. I have seen a handful of them come in, some had the clamps welded to the axle tubes...others were shifted and misaligned. Good idea marking the axle to see if there is any movement!

Thanks for the info.

Did you ever have to re-align the axle clamps multiple times on the same car?

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Interesting to note that JDM engineering no longer sells either the fays2 or the steeda watts links. They now only sell the WL version. JDM claims that they have had nothing but problems with the fays2 and steeda units. JDM also claims the WL watts link will result in straighter launches on the drag strip.

Jimbo

We do not make any claims of the WL product vs. another Watts Link design, only vs. stock. We do not sell or have ever sold the Fays 2 or the Steeda although we sell a lot of Steeda components..... We don't like the Fays watts link because it clamps to the axle tubes and tends to shift and move. I've seen more than a few cars on our lift that have had this system and we had to re-adjust the axle clamps.

JimIII

Jim, thanks for the clarification. I didn't think you guys had sold the Fays2. I'm also trying to understand how a car drag racing (straight line) experiencing no lateral (left to right) movement given the same roll center height (RCH) benefits from a watts link. Also can't find anyone that has a Fays2 watts link shift on them.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Stand on the brakes and front end nose dives. Back end rises sky high. Floor it at a green light and front end lifts like crazy..and back end squats.

I wouldn't exactly categorize those observations as handling deficiencies as long as they don't 'overshoot', bobble around, or otherwise bring on directional stability or tire grip issues that would be.

There is NO camber adjustment on any 05-14 car. Brakes are semi junk.

Brakes I'll give you, at least as far as performance driving is concerned. But the lack of camber adjustment is more a tuning limitation than a handling deficiency. The factory preferred camber of -0.75° is the deficiency. There's a difference.

If folks think Ford 'got it right' with the oem PHB setup... well they didn't.

Have you ever driven a stock-suspended Fox/SN95 or a RWD GM Intermediate in anger? The differences are hard to miss.

Drove me nuts with the axle sticking out almost 3/4" towards the driver's side. My camber, stock... was -1.1 deg on pass side.....and -1.4 deg on the driver's side.

That's just sloppy assembly, with some cars coming off the production line closer to symmetrical or otherwise better off than others. My car had and still has no rear axle centering issues, and the front cambers were less than 0.1° different . . . at a little over -1.7°.

## I actually did everything on your list above. Ok, what are you calling the midpoint height of the PHB ? If it's 1/2 way along the PHB ..that point is well above the midpoint of the center of the differential.

The height at the midpoint of the bar. I measured to the bolt centers of the axle and chassis side pivots with the car weight fully on the ground and divided by two to get just under 11-7/8". That's pretty close to the as-loaded axle center height (half of ~27" tall tires minus tire compression under load. That 11-7/8" will drop another 3/16" or so (stock springs) when the guy measuring all that stuff crawls out from under the car and gets in the driver seat.

For the PHB to be well above axle height only exists under droop to the point that the rear tires would not be carrying much load or carrying none at all because it is up on a 2-post lift. Only the PHB brace is well up there all of the time with the car fully resting on its tires . . .


When you did all that stuff but the last, you altered the rear suspension roll steer geometry, making it better for your launch more by accident than by your own intent. The last item added rear roll stiffness, which mostly works to offset driveshaft torque unweighting the RR and planting the LR a little harder. As a secondary effect, it reduces roll by a small amount, which ultimately reduces the amount the rear axle steers.

Theoretically, rear squat with a PHB and LCAs that are skewed in plan view will produce a finite amount of axle steer, but this effect is so tiny as to be below the level of human perception and lost in the "noise" from OE LCA bushing distortions.


Norm

 

[NoTicket]

Jim, thanks for the clarification. I didn't think you guys had sold the Fays2. I'm also trying to understand how a car drag racing (straight line) experiencing no lateral (left to right) movement given the same roll center height (RCH) benefits from a watts link. Also can't find anyone that has a Fays2 watts link shift on them.

I believe the answer here is that the rear was not perfectly aligned before swapping in the Watts link, and as part of the install process the rear was more painstakingly aligned than before. I could see a rear end alignment dropping 60' by a fraction of a tenth of a second.

 

[modernbeat]

Baffles me how Terry Fair beats on all his WL equipment..yet never reports any failures. I highly suspect being a WL dealer, we would never find out anyway.... but I may be wrong...

If there aren't any failures on our car, we can't report them. You've read us reporting plenty of failures of poorly made upper mounts, overheating diffs and rear axles, and some of the poor OEM parts. Even the parts we break, like the Forgestar wheel we destroyed by sliding sideways over curbing, are reported.

It baffled a lot more people of why they didn't say ANYTHING in the thread on the Whiteline unit failing. They posted in the thread. They are aware of the thread. The only posts they made (Modernbeat) had to do with a neat bottom mounted watts and never addressed anything about known failures or even about their own car.

What could we have said? We've seen one fail in the same mode after the thread was over. I've spoken to Whiteline about it. They were aware of it. They were making changes. I didn't have anything to add except speculation, and I don't like to speculate.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Jim, thanks for the clarification. I didn't think you guys had sold the Fays2. I'm also trying to understand how a car drag racing (straight line) experiencing no lateral (left to right) movement given the same roll center height (RCH) benefits from a watts link. Also can't find anyone that has a Fays2 watts link shift on them.

When the engine torques the entire power train rotates toward the passenger side. This transfers the weight of the vehicle from front to back unevenly. With most of the weight going on top of the passenger side tire. You need even weight distribution on top of both tires to get consistent traction.

Look at this car here running the stock panhard and rear sway setup. Its not a good example because for this car I would recommend a BMR extreme anti roll bar and not a watts link but you can see what happens when the weight is transferred. On a Smaller scale (slower, less powerful car) the watts link assists in a similar manor.

Funny thing the car we did all the watts link drag testing with is the white car ahead of the Red car in this picture.

Now with the proper suspension you can see the same car with the front wheels up evenly. This is going to make the 60' times more consistent and traction better.

 

[sheizasosay]

If there aren't any failures on our car, we can't report them. You've read us reporting plenty of failures of poorly made upper mounts, overheating diffs and rear axles, and some of the poor OEM parts. Even the parts we break, like the Forgestar wheel we destroyed by sliding sideways over curbing, are reported.



What could we have said? We've seen one fail in the same mode after the thread was over. I've spoken to Whiteline about it. They were aware of it. They were making changes. I didn't have anything to add except speculation, and I don't like to speculate.

What you just said.

 

[Norm Peterson]

As far as drag strip testing, you guys are the corner carvers we are the drag racers. In drag testing the Watts Link versus stock suspension setup with PHB we saw a reduction of nearly .5 tenth of a second in 60' foot times on a 2006 Saleen Mustang we used to drag race and more consistency in the 60' foot times.

Half a tenth, as in 0.0500 seconds? Without more data, that sounds a lot more like an improvement in driver confidence and fewer/smaller steering corrections due to reduced axle steer.

The Watts link distributes the weight transfer evenly as opposed to the panhard design that is allowing more weight to be placed over the top of the passenger side rear wheel.

Actually, the S197's PHB tends to load the driver side tire more than the passenger side tire because the PHB's axle-side attachment is on the driver side.

an extreme anti roll bar from BMR would be best choice.

As noted in my preceding post, the rear sta-bar uses the engine torque reaction to re-plant the RR tire that gets unloaded under acceleration.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

When the engine torques the entire power train rotates toward the passenger side. This transfers the weight of the vehicle from front to back unevenly. With most of the weight going on top of the passenger side tire.

That is only half of the story. The small part until both front wheels are off the ground.

The other part is driveshaft torque, which pushes down on the LR and lifts load off the RR.

Things like making the rear roll stiffness higher (extreme anti-roll bar) and/or making the front roll stiffness lower (removal or disconnection of the front sta-bar) are both methods of attracting resistance to engine torque reaction to the rear wheels where it works to equalize rear tire loadings.


Norm

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Half a tenth, as in 0.0500 seconds? Without more data, that sounds a lot more like an improvement in driver confidence and fewer/smaller steering corrections due to reduced axle steer


Norm

In the 1/4 mile your 60' time lowering on Average of half a tenth or .05 is alot!

Every tenth of a second in the 60' is 2 tenths on the big end so if a car consistently runs 11.70 with a 1.70 average 60' time. Then that same car lowers his 60' average to 1.65, theoretically he is going to run 11.60. So .0500 doesn't sound like much but when your only going 1320' it adds up

Ultimate test would have been to install the watts link on the car at the track same day, same conditions, same driver, etc. But this was during the middle of a race season where the driver (incredibly seasoned racer) of the car already had more than a few passes under his belt. He finished out the season and raced for 4 more seasons after with the Watts link upgrade. No breakage, no failures, most importantly to prove my point no traction issues. 60' times were lowered on Average and it helped the car, I stand behind that.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Was the Panhard bar relocated prior to the Watts installation? What were the roll center heights with the Panhard and the Watts if no relocation? I'm thinking there's more going on here than just Watts=win.