Cracked 4.6 Block.....AGAIN

05moneypit

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TTY use the EXACT procedure in the manual and you will be fine. Only use once then discard

ARP can be re-used many times if installed properly.

All re-useable fasteners "stretch" under torque but are designed to return to their original length when loosed.

TTY fasteners do not return to their original state, that is why they are a single use fastener.

Lee

Good stuff.

OK..the easy part: OEM fasterners. Use new. Either torque to yield using stretch gauge, or if no gauge present, use a torque number. Use once and discard.

So...Here is where the smoke is coming out of my ears: ARP fasteners. High end. Re-usable? I understood that they are - but I could be wrong. So...do they "stretch" when stretch-gauged or torqued to a number value and remain permanently stretched after use, or is there some elasticity in them (IE they return to stock length when dis-assembled) that allows their re-use? OR does ARP recommend use once and discard just like OEM? My common sense tells me they would not have any elasticity (and remain stretched), but I don't know. Perhaps a call to ARP is in order...I would like to know the skinny if nobody here knows with certainty.
 

one eyed willy

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ARP do stretch. They have guidlines as to what is acceptable and what is "out of spec"....to 9 out of 10 weekend warriors its not much to worry about. Guys who rebuild often know enough to check them on each rebuild.....never trust a part to be "in-spec" even brand new out of the box....

have you got the block torn down yet?
 

05moneypit

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ARP do stretch. They have guidlines as to what is acceptable and what is "out of spec"....to 9 out of 10 weekend warriors its not much to worry about. Guys who rebuild often know enough to check them on each rebuild.....never trust a part to be "in-spec" even brand new out of the box....

have you got the block torn down yet?

^^^^Correct, According to AL at ARP the nominal length on the 3V stud is 9.500. More than .020 longer than nominal is over streched and should be discarded. Some of the new studs I got measured 9.515 out of the box....now of course that is with a set of cheap 12" dial calipers so I wasn't all that concerened about the actual number.



Yes, tore it down yesterday and cleaned up parts today. Measured all the studs and they are all within .005 of when they went in the block. Absolutely nothing wrong internally with the rotating assembly other than everything was coated with vanila pudding stuff....not nearly as bad as the last motor though.....lol

I guess I am going to have to go with I ruined the block by improper head torque. Nothing else really makes any sense IMOP.

Lee
 

Greg Hazlett

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Are you still looking for a block? I answered your WTB post as well as sent you a PM.
 

BruceH

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ARP do stretch. They have guidlines as to what is acceptable and what is "out of spec"....to 9 out of 10 weekend warriors its not much to worry about. Guys who rebuild often know enough to check them on each rebuild.....never trust a part to be "in-spec" even brand new out of the box....

have you got the block torn down yet?

Just adding to your post.

Yes they do stretch. Like previously mentioned all fasteners stretch when properly torqued as that's the only way they stay fastened.

Something people don't think about is rod bolts. ARP8740 have to be checked and usually shouldn't be used more than once unless you have the original measurements to check against. ARP2000 are generally good for reuse.

There is plenty of information out there. Search terms like yield, plastic state, tty.

TTY fasteners stretch into the plastic state. The plastic state happens after the elastic state is exceeded. Once a fastener is in the plastic state it doesn't recover and can't be reused. A properly engineered tty fastener enters the plastic state at the same clamping force as needed for the application. This ensures proper torque and prevents over torque. Over torque can lead to metal fatigue, warping, and metal displacement.

I'll preface this with my own experience. I've been using calibrated torque tools for over the last 24 years. Torque values are important enough in my job that I have to record the sn and expiration date of the certified tool, fastener types, and torque value used. One thing that you should never do is double torque or "check" already torqued fasteners. In most cases it adds excessive torque.

Anyone can check any of this information out for themselves. Just spend a little time searching. Ford has some pretty good reasons for building motors like they do. Just because it's not what was done 30 years ago when hot rodding a 350 doesn't mean it's wrong. Search, learn, don't take anything anyone says for granted.

Good luck with the rebuild.
 

DiMora

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This thread delivers. OP, I am sorry you lost a block, but you have shared the root issue and we are all smarter for it.

It sounds like I shouldn't fear ARP fasteners, but I should always use ARP lube when torquing them - or just save the $$ and use OEM TTY fasteners and follow the shop manual and expect good results.
 

05moneypit

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Pictures of my prototype V4........:roflmao:

So we thought it might be worth a chance to try and weld repair the crack on the outside and then hardblock the water jacket half way up the cylinders. It only took a little time and a couple 1/8" holes to figure out the crack was into the stud hole so we gave up. Figured since it was junk anyway I might as well see what the inside really looked like. 10HP vertical bandsaw and about 2 minutes and we have a V4.

These are just cell phone pictures but their not to bad.

V4


The crack is easy to see with the naked eye even without any dye penetrant. I outlined the crack in red in this picture. Crack goes through the 3rd thread from the bottom of the bolt hole, spreads into the water jacket around the cylinder liner and into the oil return cavity and then to the outside of the block. The little hole on the outside of the block is hole that was drilled during the aborted weld repair.

 

stkjock

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Lee

Great tear down. Sucks that the block is trashed.

Good luck on the rebuild.
 

05moneypit

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Had someone else ask if the studs were screwed in to far and bottomed out. I always just screw them in finger tight and back them out a 1/2 a turn or so and then measure them so the top of the stud is 5" from the deck. As you can see in the picture with the stud laid in the hole it would be impossible to bottom them out because there isn't enough thread on the stud. The red bleeding through in the picture is spot check that shows the path of the crack.

 

stkjock

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Interesting. I sent the first pic to Mike at L&M and he suggested this.

He did not overtorque the stud.
He was turning the stud and it was pushing the bottom of the thread hole forcing the lower casting away from the upper casting. The stud must stay stationary when turning the nut.*
The guy on the wrench must know "the feel" when the nut and stud are rotating as an assembly, instead of turning ONLY the nut; this also means the washer must be stationary as well.*
We see this all the time when guys complain they can't obtain torque and the wrench feels "springy" while approaching higher torque.
We have never seen a guy get to cracking the block.

One other thing, the stud must have the top threads at the head casting surface or lower. Many blocks, mostly iron, have incomplete or dirty threads and the block needs the threads worked and spotless clean prior to assembly.

We use 100 lb/ft on the 2000 bolt on hundreds of these engines successfully.*
 

TurboX

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I had the same thing happen except mine cracked towards the inside, waterjacket between block and sleeve. Whenever I got into high boost, water would flow up the stud and into oil.
 

psfracer

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Pictures of my prototype V4........:roflmao:


V4
IMG_20130524_194617_143_zpsf401a615.jpg



Crack_zpsffdc8621.jpg

very interesting.
 

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