dss boss block girdle

[v8venomgt]

http://www.dssracing.com/Main_Support_System_1002_p/1002.htm

any thoughts in regards to the concept? ive heard good things, and bad things about dss. ive even heard about them regarded in context similar to mmr. i like the concept of the boss block, and saw bruce's success with it. my biggest concern is main cap walk past 700 horsepower. from an engineering stand point how does this fit into the picture? would it take up the slack these blocks are developing a reputation for, or is this type of thing good in theory but applying a band aid to a larger problem? also, dont iron, and aluminium not play well together when exposed to one another?

***ripped from a vendors site***

Made of 3/4” Billet 6061-T6 aluminum, the D.S.S. Main Support System effectively dampens damaging harmonics, virtually eliminating main bearing walk. The Main Support Plate is fastened to the main caps using custom ARP main studs (included), effectively tying all five main caps together. By adding another main web structure you dramatically increase the block’s strength, helping both block and crankshaft life. Our Main Support System makes it possible to produce 650-plus horsepower from a production block. * Why Are D.S.S. Main Supports So Important? * It seems that everybody today is trying to get more and more power from their engines. Increasing engine RPM’s, or adding nitrous, turbos' or superchargers are some sure ways to increase power, but they can be very tough on durability. Additional stresses generated by running higher RPM’s or using power adders are transferred directly through the pistons, rods and crankshaft to the block’s main webbing. Commonly, the reciprocating force can overwhelm the main bearing caps and the fasteners that hold them in place. Under heavy loads, the caps will shift or “walk” from side to side. This movement is transferred to the ends of the main cap fasteners, causing the threads to become fatigued. Eventually the main web cracks, leading to a loss in oil pressure and possibly total destruction of the block and internal components. To combat this problem, Ford Racing offers Splayed Four-Bolt main racing blocks. While excellent pieces, the price puts them out of reach for the average enthusiast. This is where the D.S.S. Main Support System comes in. Starting at $299.95 the D.S.S. Main Support System is a very cost-effective way to add strength to a production block without breaking the bank.

 

[travelers]

The M-6010-BOSS302 you do realize that this is for a pushrod block.

 

[v8venomgt]

Ha yeah, I grabbed the wrong link. They offer the girl for mod motors as well. I'll edit it later. Thanks for catching that.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I passed on the BOSS block because of the main caps.

Someone needs to make a girdle that goes from the mains to the pan rails. Mains tied to all the mains, then the entire thing tied to the pan rails.

I myself have had great experience with DSS.

 

[ford20]

I passed on the BOSS block because of the main caps.

Someone needs to make a girdle that goes from the mains to the pan rails. Mains tied to all the mains, then the entire thing tied to the pan rails.

I myself have had great experience with DSS.

I'm pretty sure RGR does. I know that I saw an option about that on JPC's site IIRC.

Edit:

Like this?

Rotating Assembly
Ford Racing Boss Block 3.700 inch bore
Custom RGR Billet 4 Bolt Main Caps
ARP Main Studs
Custom Spec CP Pistons
Coated Pistons
Total Seal Piston Rings
Low Friction Coated Rod and Main Bearings
Custom Spec Billet Steel Oliver Connecting Rods
ARP Rod Bolts

 

[wabirch]

RGR priced themselves into the stratosphere I am told. North of 3k if I recall.

Here's the link for what they have. I agree, iron and aluminum could be a problem.

http://www.dssracing.com/D_S_S_Main_Support_System_s/6.htm

 

[Department Of Boost]

I'm pretty sure RGR does. I know that I saw an option about that on JPC's site IIRC.

Edit:

Like this?

Rotating Assembly
Ford Racing Boss Block 3.700 inch bore
Custom RGR Billet 4 Bolt Main Caps
ARP Main Studs
Custom Spec CP Pistons
Coated Pistons
Total Seal Piston Rings
Low Friction Coated Rod and Main Bearings
Custom Spec Billet Steel Oliver Connecting Rods
ARP Rod Bolts

Here is the RGR conversion. If I remember correctly $2500.

http://www.mustangandfords.com/how-to/engine/mmfp-0905-ford-modular-boss-5l-block-and-stroker-upgrade/

If I remember correctly the RGR setup was just a 4 bolt main conversion. I was thinking of something like this. It ties the main caps to each other as well as all the pan bolts (would require a custom pan too). Something would still need to be done about the main "dowels" in the BOSS block though.

I have the DSS stud girdle in my 4.6. I can't say that it does anything because nothing has broken. But I have been beating the snot out of the motor for years now, revving the crap out of it, slamming the rev limiter, etc and I have not shattered the stock pump gears? Coincidence? IDK.

I really wish someone would make a aluminum big bore block for the 3v. I would be all over that in a second. I have even considered running a GT500 aluminum 5.8L block with my 3v heads and just dealing with the fitment issues as they come up.

 

[mrt2you]

I have even considered running a GT500 aluminum 5.8L block with my 3v heads and just dealing with the fitment issues as they come up.

you should look into making some adaptor plates to bolt on a DOB intake to a 5.8 block. or even better make a DOB intake for a 5.8 block with 3V heads.
I am sure if you make it people will buy it. I will commit to buy a GT 450 style one right now.

I don't think it would be that hard, just cut the intake ports a little wider and you would be done.
it's probably much easier said than done in reality.

my friend had that discussion with you a while back. we just didn't have the $$$ to make the required minimum purchase.

 

[v8venomgt]

Frpp has released an aluminum variant of the boss block, but its $$$

 

[v8venomgt]

Also, wouldn't the heat expansion rates be different between the iron boss block and the girdle creating some sort of stress?

 

[mrt2you]

Frpp has released an aluminum variant of the boss block, but its $$$

JDM is selling them right now on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&vxp=mtr&item=121728332407
I bought 2 of them. 1 for me 1 for a friend.
I can't use it with a DOB 450 intake. the intake valley is raised on it and won't clear the bottom of the intake inter cooler area.

 

[BruceH]

http://www.dssracing.com/Main_Support_System_1002_p/1002.htm

any thoughts in regards to the concept? ive heard good things, and bad things about dss. ive even heard about them regarded in context similar to mmr. i like the concept of the boss block, and saw bruce's success with it. my biggest concern is main cap walk past 700 horsepower. from an engineering stand point how does this fit into the picture? would it take up the slack these blocks are developing a reputation for, or is this type of thing good in theory but applying a band aid to a larger problem? also, dont iron, and aluminium not play well together when exposed to one another?

***ripped from a vendors site***

Made of 3/4” Billet 6061-T6 aluminum, the D.S.S. Main Support System effectively dampens damaging harmonics, virtually eliminating main bearing walk. The Main Support Plate is fastened to the main caps using custom ARP main studs (included), effectively tying all five main caps together. By adding another main web structure you dramatically increase the block’s strength, helping both block and crankshaft life. Our Main Support System makes it possible to produce 650-plus horsepower from a production block. * Why Are D.S.S. Main Supports So Important? * It seems that everybody today is trying to get more and more power from their engines. Increasing engine RPM’s, or adding nitrous, turbos' or superchargers are some sure ways to increase power, but they can be very tough on durability. Additional stresses generated by running higher RPM’s or using power adders are transferred directly through the pistons, rods and crankshaft to the block’s main webbing. Commonly, the reciprocating force can overwhelm the main bearing caps and the fasteners that hold them in place. Under heavy loads, the caps will shift or “walk” from side to side. This movement is transferred to the ends of the main cap fasteners, causing the threads to become fatigued. Eventually the main web cracks, leading to a loss in oil pressure and possibly total destruction of the block and internal components. To combat this problem, Ford Racing offers Splayed Four-Bolt main racing blocks. While excellent pieces, the price puts them out of reach for the average enthusiast. This is where the D.S.S. Main Support System comes in. Starting at $299.95 the D.S.S. Main Support System is a very cost-effective way to add strength to a production block without breaking the bank.

IMO girdles are for the old style pushrod blocks that would split with too much hp. Another solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Look up how much power the Terminators could handle. They have the same main cap setup as the boss block. What I'm getting at is to do your comparisons with like products. The mod block design is a whole lot better than the old pushrod designs. In fact it's so good that GM copied it for their LS motors as did Chrysler for their new Hemi series. Look at the mains for each motor and they look just like a mod motor. Coincidence that they used a design that looks very much like what Ford came up with in the late 80's?

Personally I'd say that if you plan to run a whole lot of boost then just run an aluminum 4.6. They are already proven to hold lots of boost and power. IMO the main advantage of a boss block is for n/a or low boost situations.

If you are really going for big power why not just get one of the new 5.8 blocks? The price wouldn't be bad considering what you are getting. It would take a 5.4 crank, rods, bearings, etc. Custom pistons won't be any more than the price for custom pistons for a boss block. IIRC a 5.8 block is around $3k and that's with a nikasil finished bore that doesn't need any machine work. If I'm remembering correctly all you will need a machine shop for is balancing the rotating assembly. Not having to bore, hone, and deck the block will knock quite a bit off of the total cost.

 

[Department Of Boost]

you should look into making some adaptor plates to bolt on a DOB intake to a 5.8 block. or even better make a DOB intake for a 5.8 block with 3V heads.
I am sure if you make it people will buy it. I will commit to buy a GT 450 style one right now.

I don't think it would be that hard, just cut the intake ports a little wider and you would be done.
it's probably much easier said than done in reality.

my friend had that discussion with you a while back. we just didn't have the $$$ to make the required minimum purchase.

Tall deck manifolds would be easy for us to do. But we would still need a good number of orders to simply break even.

Adapter plates are also popular but because of the way the bolts would have to be offset they would be very complicated, hence expensive. Add the price of what they would have to cost to a manifold and you have a really expensive manifold. It would be far smarter to design a new manifold and incorporate some better design upgrades into it.

Frpp has released an aluminum variant of the boss block, but its $$$

Are you sure? Where?

Also, wouldn't the heat expansion rates be different between the iron boss block and the girdle creating some sort of stress?

No

JDM is selling them right now on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&vxp=mtr&item=121728332407
I bought 2 of them. 1 for me 1 for a friend.
I can't use it with a DOB 450 intake. the intake valley is raised on it and won't clear the bottom of the intake inter cooler area.

That is not a aluminum BOSS block. Those are the old Cammer blocks and they do not hold up well to boost.

IMO girdles are for the old style pushrod blocks that would split with too much hp. Another solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Look up how much power the Terminators could handle. They have the same main cap setup as the boss block. What I'm getting at is to do your comparisons with like products. The mod block design is a whole lot better than the old pushrod designs. In fact it's so good that GM copied it for their LS motors as did Chrysler for their new Hemi series. Look at the mains for each motor and they look just like a mod motor. Coincidence that they used a design that looks very much like what Ford came up with in the late 80's?

Personally I'd say that if you plan to run a whole lot of boost then just run an aluminum 4.6. They are already proven to hold lots of boost and power. IMO the main advantage of a boss block is for n/a or low boost situations.

If you are really going for big power why not just get one of the new 5.8 blocks? The price wouldn't be bad considering what you are getting. It would take a 5.4 crank, rods, bearings, etc. Custom pistons won't be any more than the price for custom pistons for a boss block. IIRC a 5.8 block is around $3k and that's with a nikasil finished bore that doesn't need any machine work. If I'm remembering correctly all you will need a machine shop for is balancing the rotating assembly. Not having to bore, hone, and deck the block will knock quite a bit off of the total cost.

Terminator lower ends hold up with the "pins" a lot better than the stroker motors with the "pins" because of the massive difference in harmonics between the two.

 

[BruceH]

Tall deck manifolds would be easy for us to do. But we would still need a good number of orders to simply break even.

Adapter plates are also popular but because of the way the bolts would have to be offset they would be very complicated, hence expensive. Add the price of what they would have to cost to a manifold and you have a really expensive manifold. It would be far smarter to design a new manifold and incorporate some better design upgrades into it.


Are you sure? Where?


No


That is not a aluminum BOSS block. Those are the old Cammer blocks and they do not hold up well to boost.



Terminator lower ends hold up with the "pins" a lot better than the stroker motors with the "pins" because of the massive difference in harmonics between the two.

Just looked up the price on a new 5.8 block. $4700 was the lowest I could find.

I didn't realize he was talking about a stroker. I was trying to make a comparison between the boss and terminator lower ends only. I'd still say that the aluminum 4.6 would be the best bet for high boost/high power.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Just looked up the price on a new 5.8 block. $4700 was the lowest I could find.

I didn't realize he was talking about a stroker. I was trying to make a comparison between the boss and terminator lower ends only. I'd still say that the aluminum 4.6 would be the best bet for high boost/high power.

I agree the 4.6 is the best bet in the long run. It sure would be nice to be able to make 1000-1100hp without having to make 25+psi though.

 

[BruceH]

I agree the 4.6 is the best bet in the long run. It sure would be nice to be able to make 1000-1100hp without having to make 25+psi though.

Is 1000rwhp the new standard? Lol.

Someone should build a serious motor on the 5.8 block. I wonder if it is head specific or if it can take a 2v, 3v, or 4v head? A set of GT500 heads on that motor with the right cams and high compression would make a serious powerplant.

You could probably write it off as a business expense.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Is 1000rwhp the new standard? Lol.

Well, duh!

You're of course right, I'm talking about a very narrow application. At about 550hp stuff starts to get real stupid. The money gets stupid and the usefulness gets stupid. And to be frank, 99% of people don't have the skills to actually use more power than that.

550-600 is my personal "That's a fast car" zone. And still allows the car to be a regular car.

Someone should build a serious motor on the 5.8 block. I wonder if it is head specific or if it can take a 2v, 3v, or 4v head? A set of GT500 heads on that motor with the right cams and high compression would make a serious powerplant.

The 5.8 will take any of the 2v, 3v or 4v heads (non Yote).

I would like to build a 5.8L 3v because I fully intend on having the worlds fastest 3v (I'm really shooting for the fastest S197 period). But I'll probably get it done at 4.6L, so I'll wait and see.

You could probably write it off as a business expense.

You can't buy stuff and then write it off with money you don't have.

 

[mrt2you]

I would LOVE to buy a GT450 style DOB intake for a 5.8.
I am already running one on my car now with a ported 2.3 tvs. I make 650rwhp now. to make more power I have to start spending some serious $$$.
I have a repairable 5.8 block I got for next to nothing. just get the hole in the skirt welded up add 1 sleeve and it's good to go.
now add a stroker crank, good rods, pistons and I can build a 6.2L 3V. I wouldn't have to run a lot of boost to make 1000rwhp. I might be able to do it on pump gas without a crazy amount of $$$ to build it. the largest expense would be the stroker crank.

you can buy cast iron 5.4 blocks pretty cheaply now. add a set of 3V heads, a DOB intake. a take off TVS blower you could make a 800 rwhp on pump 93 octane with nothing exotic or custom built parts, except for the intake.

 

[v8venomgt]

Thanks for the feedback thus far. I misspoke about an aluminum boss block. I stumbled upon this http://www.modmaxracing.com/mobile/Product.aspx?id=200 sometime ago and hadnt remembered the description clearly. My thing with the boss block was less machining of the block versus a takeout 4.6, and the larger bore. In all honesty, I've been looking at any justifiable angle to get myself into a b53 shortblock once it's been proven so to speak in the market. Realistically, its just making more and more sense to scoop up a new aluminum 4.6 block for the $1600 and a rotating assembly of my choice.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I would LOVE to buy a GT450 style DOB intake for a 5.8.
I am already running one on my car now with a ported 2.3 tvs. I make 650rwhp now. to make more power I have to start spending some serious $$$.

What boost are you making?

you can buy cast iron 5.4 blocks pretty cheaply now. add a set of 3V heads, a DOB intake. a take off TVS blower you could make a 800 rwhp on pump 93 octane with nothing exotic or custom built parts, except for the intake.

A 2.3L TVS won't make 800hp unless the motor has a really high compression ratio. Then you're looking at race gas or e85.