Has anyone made 3v phaser limiters out of lockouts?

[BruceH]

I'm thinking about cutting a set of lockouts in half, milling, and putting a drill start in each half to hold a spring. Basically mimicking the Livernois limiters.

It should be fairly straight forward, the biggest challenge would be selecting the correct spring. Has anyone done this or heard of anyone doing it? Lockouts are under $40 on ebay so it would be an inexpensive experiment. 1/6 of the measured length should net a 10 degree limiter.

 

[BruceH]

The ebay lockouts came today. I'm thinking of just milling 1/6 off of the flat back ends and calling it done. I can't see how they would cock or bind in the phaser because of this.

It would allow for 10 degrees of additional retard which should increase the upper rpm airflow in my motor. Upper rpm airflow has gone down since I went from the frpp intake to stock. Lower rpm airflow is better with the stock intake so I want to stay with it and try other things to get more air into the motor at higher rpms.

My cams are already ground with an icl that's the same as retarding 127500 cams 6 degrees. A few more degrees should help, might not but should. Putting a set of modified lockouts in is an inexpensive way to find out. If it does help then I can go a little farther with tfs gears on the crank to bring the icl closer to 127500 or I could even pick up a set of cams and sell these.

Can anyone see why just taking some off of the end wouldn't work or why it would be a bad idea? The other option is going to be cutting them in half, removing material, and installing a spring between the halves.

 

[RED09GT]

Seeing as the comp limiters don't have anything to cushion them, I don't see why this wouldn't work as all they are is a stop for the phaser. I was contemplating why this wouldn't work in my mind a couple years ago and couldn't come up with any reason.

 

[eighty6gt]

The comp limiters are bolted to this limiter housing. Not sure I would want loose material banging around inside the phaser.

 

[TheBlackPearl]

I think as long as you kept the correct angle on it when you milled it. So when the vane in the phaser contacts the limiter there maximum contact area. You don't want it just touching the outer tip of this vane and breaking it off in the phaser.

Has anyone thought of makeing a poly cushion for the limiters? That might help keep the phaser alive longer in the event of the springs slamming it in a low rpm situation. Providing engine oil doesn't degrade the poly cushion.

Rothe

 

[Scott]

This is what one of the limiters looked like a few minutes into first startup of my new motor build. Switched to lockouts and have had no issues.

 

[BruceH]

This is what one of the limiters looked like a few minutes into first startup of my new motor build. Switched to lockouts and have had no issues.

I've had different success with the Livernois limiters. They worked very well for me. I did a whole lot of data logging different cam positions with the Livernois and Comp limiters. Both worked but the Livernois style was quicker to react to commanded retard values.

I wonder what happened to your spring? It would appear to have a bad heat treat making it brittle or had a nick in it which caused the structural integrity to be weakened. Glad nothing catastrophic happened.

I've been thinking of just adding a spring to go between the phaser and modified lockout. I have a good selection of well made springs from my curio and relic gun collecting time.

As it stands right now I'm waiting for the sun to hit my roof long enough to warm it up. Had a sideways rainstorm a few nights ago and I need to seal some shingles down. The phaser mod is going on hold for a little while.

I did manage to take enough material off of each one to equal about 9 degrees of retard. Since I'm only looking for 5 degrees max they should fit the bill just fine. I still can't see how having the home made limiters without springs would cause any harm. There is no way they can go sideways and there are still 4 open chambers for the oil to control cam position.

I do think that a spring or pair of springs would help to keep everything square "just in case". Since I don't know what forces the limiters will be under in operation I don't know how likely it is that I'm missing something could go awry.

Edit: Not sure why I didn't think of this before. I have phasers that are used for spare parts. I can easily drill the back plates and screw the modified lockouts to them. I'll secure them with permanent Loctite. The green 6xx series that's used for retaining sleeves and bearings. In fact I'll probably make the back plate hole in a manner that will allow for peening material over the screw for extra security. I could also use two drilled head screws and safety wire for positive securing.

 

[BruceH]

I'm giving this way too much thought. The current line of thought is that a .500" stainless ball bearing would restrict retard to 20 degrees. It wouldn't get caught or bind in anything, it would provide positive limits.

I'm measuring .650 on the narrowest point of the phaser chambers, they are .780 deep and a little over .5 in height. Total amount of retard allowed would be about 16 degrees if my measurements are correct. Because of the arc and my math limits the only way to know for sure would be measure movement with a bearing in the chamber.

I wonder if they sell half inch ball bearings at Lowes?

 

[BruceH]

Ordered 100 chromium steel .5" ball bearings off of ebay for $16. Did some more detailed measurements and the best guess/prediction is that a half inch bearing will limit phaser movement to 18 degrees. This is based on restricting movement .5" from the equator of the ball.

I'm going to do it with ball bearings. The only decision now is how many should I use? One should do it but since I have 100 of them coming 5 (one for each phaser chamber) could be used. .5" will still allow for the oil control holes to be active in both directions.

The oil control holes would also explain why there is an undercut, so that the oil can still move the phaser even when the stop is fully against the phaser.

This should end the aftermarket for phaser limiters provided it works. Maybe it's been thought of before but something didn't work? Has anyone heard of using ball bearings for phaser limiters before?

 

[rcm90]

I have not seen anyone do this, but I think it's going to work out really well.

 

[eighty6gt]

I'm a little worried about pot metal and point loading, shock, impact, etc..

 

[hamish]

Yeah, you may have an issue with the small surface area at the point of contact, but I'm no engineer.

 

[Wild White Pony]

Always wondered why the spring in the semi lockouts, does it help keep the vane in park position till the oil temp and pressure release points are achieved for unlock? Just noodling..

 

[BruceH]

Always wondered why the spring in the semi lockouts, does it help keep the vane in park position till the oil temp and pressure release points are achieved for unlock? Just noodling..

AFAIK it just keeps the two halves oriented correctly so they don't flip out sideways.

 

[BruceH]

I'm a little worried about pot metal and point loading, shock, impact, etc..

The parts aren't made from pot metal. They are very strong and appear to be a chromium based stainless.

The limiters are there to insure the cams don't go past their commanded values. Theoretically they shouldn't even be needed. Realistically they are.

 

[Wild White Pony]

AFAIK it just keeps the two halves oriented correctly so they don't flip out sideways.

Ok makes sense. This setup your testing with the ball bearing then would be more of a NA benefit using stock springs, this wouldn't be good for boost and aftermarket stiffer springs?

 

[BruceH]

Ok makes sense. This setup your testing with the ball bearing then would be more of a NA benefit using stock springs, this wouldn't be good for boost and aftermarket stiffer springs?

I've been running 26113 springs. They play well with limiters. I'm having second thoughts on the ball bearings right now.

This is the one that was already made from a set of $28 ebay lockouts. I drilled a hole and added a spring to keep it from bouncing around in the phaser.

It should give me 8 degrees of retard max. That's more than I'm looking for so everything should work just fine. I can always take more material off if I want more retard ability in the future. They will go in during my upcoming Christmas break.