Intercooler pump option

Discussion in '2005+ Mustang GT 4.6L Tech' started by Laga, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. Laga

    Laga Member

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    2005 Mustang Gt. Edelbrock E-force, Kooks LT, DR cam, E85. The car runs like a beast , but I battle high IAT temps as all PD blowers do. Since winter is upon us, it’s mod time. Iv been looking at either the Killer Chiller, Steeda triple pass heat exchanger and a intercooler pump that will push as much water as possible. Right now, I have the DOB pump that’s pushes around 8 gallons a minute.
    What’s preventing me from using something like this?

    https://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS/555/50931/10002/-1


    35 gallons per minute @ 6 amps. Obliviously the water connections and mountings needed to be modified. But’s that’s not a big deal.
     
  2. 1950StangJump$

    1950StangJump$ forum member

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    By "DOB pump," do you mean the 13/14 GT500 pump they sell?

    As long as the electrical connections can handle the amperage, I can't see why you can't use a pump like you show listed by Jegs. Common sense would tell you that you need to ensure that your lines can handle the increased pressure generated.

    In my experience, lowering IATs in a forced induction car to get where you want to go is often a combination of steps including, but not limited to: Fatter supply and return lines with less sharp turns; insulated hoses; bigger degas bottle; degas bottle located in cooler location; bigger and more efficient HE; HE fans; better IC with larger lines and less sharp turns within it; and better pump. Some of these are more effective than others, with none being magic bullets except for possibly a very expensive DOB IC.

    When I read up on Killa Chillas, they seem to be something that has lost steam a little in the Mustang community, with many folks ditching them.
     
  3. Laga

    Laga Member

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    Just because it’s rated at more gpm doesn’t necessarily mean it will have greater pressure. That flow rate may be at a larger diameter hose. I’m still trying to find that out.
    I’ve all ready put fans on the stock HE and done everything possible except insulate the hoses. I doubt that will help much seeing that all the hoses are upfront in the airflow with vented hood. I’d hate to spend $800 on a steeda HE and only pick up 10°F. The Killer Chiller is the same money. Since I only race a couple of times a year, it’s a close call.
     
  4. Badd GT

    Badd GT forum member

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    id go vmp before steeda
     
  5. KRS

    KRS Junior Member

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    If you only race (I’m assuming drag race) a couple of times a year, have you considered a front mounted ice tank?

    I don’t think that pump will do anything for you because your intercooler system would be too restricted to allow the pump to flow at its rating.

    I’ve never heard of anyone insulating their hoses unless they have a trunk mounted ice tank. I also feel a larger degas bottle can actually be detrimental.

    I run a Pierburg pump and a VMP heat exchanger on my GT500.
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2019
  6. Laga

    Laga Member

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    For the strip I have a three gallon ice tank I mount where the passenger seat goes. I need something for road race track and when I take it out for fun. Found better alternatives. Davies Craig makes 30 gpm pumps that would be easier to use. The Edelbrock is going to be restrictive no matter what. So going with a bigger pump will still push proportionally more water which should lower temperatures.
     
  7. Pentalab

    Pentalab forum member

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    That flow rate will be with zero back pressure. The Mezziere...'20 gpm' pump puts out less than my oem Bosch...aprx 4 gpm. The '55 gpm' Mezziere puts out 35 gpm with no back pressure...and barely 5 gpm with back pressure. They are 12 vdc bilge pumps.

    Looking at old notes, the killer chiller doesn't fare too well on road courses. Every time u mash the gas, the AC is offline. Takes several minutes for the IAT's to drop..with no boost...cruising.... but the coolant temps will eventually drop to c 40 deg F. You don't cruise on a road course.

    A trunk mounted round ice box, that just fits the spare tire well, packed with ice, should be good for a 15 min road course session.

    Water/meth would work. That's been used with great success on road courses.
     
  8. Laga

    Laga Member

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    “They are 12 vdc bilge pumps.”

    That’s why I want to go with an electric water pump designed for engine cooling.

    “Water/meth would work. That's been used with great success on road courses.”

    Not with PD blowers. One , Edelbrock states it will take coating off rotors. Two,
    Water/meth has to be injected after the Intercooler. Otherwise, the mist collects on any surface it contacts and will not distribute properly.
     
  9. KRS

    KRS Junior Member

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    If you’re looking to reduce temps on a road course I’d be looking at the largest non-fan heat exchanger that I could find. The 13-14 GT500 heat exchanger is pretty large. I’d also add the 13-14 radiator fan with the doors/flaps in it that open up at speed to increase airflow through the radiator, which in turn will increase the air through the heat exchanger. Ford designed this system to allow this 13/14 GT500 to run 200 MPH.

    Not sure what you have for a front bumper and grill but if you’re stock you might want to look at something that can move more air.

    As far as the pump you’re looking at, it’s not too expensive so why not just buy one and test it against your Pierburg. Test the flow through your complete system, an easy test is to use two 5 gallon buckets and time how long it takes to move 5 gallons through your system.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  10. Laga

    Laga Member

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    Waiting for reply from Davies Craig. I asked what the flow per minute would be through a 3/4” hose. Which is what the other pumps like Pierburg and Bosch are. I’ve ruled out Killer Chiller.
     
  11. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    I didn't see if you are automatic or manual trans? I have a 2010 Roush 427r auto that I run on road courses and I have installed the Kenny Brown/Fluidyne Triple Flow Triple Pass Radiator and the same HE with dual fans. HE however does not fit into an automatic without cutting the front bumper and also had to cut in to my lower Roush fascia. They both cool my engine quite well and I just have the stock Roush pump(I forget what pump) Pentalab knows? I'm also running a 2.49 pulley with 9lbs boost. But I still over heat my trans... wont' go into that here.....

    I would check on the Fluidyne options, they do a big percentage of NASCAR radiators.

    I also installed a switch to turn off the HE fans if not needed. Also a Ford Racing Radiator fan.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  12. Laga

    Laga Member

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    It’s an auto. I have Fluidyne 3X radiator since last year. I will never buy another one of their products. Let’s just say he’s a lying S.O.B.
     
  13. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    I had similar, Kenny Brown sold me theirs telling me it would fit with no modification, needless to say it didn't, but my car was torn apart already so we went for it, that's kinda on me, I don't blame that on Fluidyne, it's a model that is only sold thru KB. It has worked for me though....
     
  14. JJ427R

    JJ427R forum member

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    Since you have an auto and plan on running road courses get ready to add some cooling to your trans. The 5r55 overheats very quickly and will start shifting itself into overdrive even though turned off, at least that is what mine does. I have the Performance Automatic larger pan, JDM Engineering overflow catch can, and a B&M Racing 20,500 btu cooler. I can usually make it 2 or 3 20-25 minute sessions before it will start to overheat.
    my 2018 GT PP1 only made it 12 minutes on track before limp mode. POS in my opinon…

    When the 5r55 overheats it will blow the fluid into the bell housing, then all over the bottom of your car, thus the JDM Catch can.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2019
  15. Shayne Rowe

    Shayne Rowe Junior Member

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    My understanding the 13/14 gt500 pump does good..
    But if you want the best get the Stewart pump, along with Jason (DOB) titanic HE..
    But there’s good deals to be had from ones going to Titanic, getting there ole 13/14 gt500 HE..
     
  16. Laga

    Laga Member

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    “Since you have an auto and plan on running road courses get ready to add some cooling to your trans. “
    I’ve read your problems with overheating. My track day at Blackhawk had no problems except high IAT’s. I monitored everything with Interceptor.

    I bought Fluidyne 3X radiator last Black Friday. Along with other parts. Due to health problems, everything had to sit on the shelf until May. I had everything torn apart when I pulled radiator from box to install. The lower mounting bracket was not welded. Called Fluidyne, was put in contact with c/s, who were very helpful. But they LIED about shipping replacement. Had to pay to have to welded. Then, the bungs for mounting the a/c condenser, were too short. Bolt went right through radiator wall. At least the welder repaired it for free because he felt sorry for what I was going through.

    Definitely, looking into DOB heat exchanger.
     
  17. Pentalab

    Pentalab forum member

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    Op. How much boost / rwhp / TQ ? I would have thought that E85, with it's 105-107 octane would keep the eng from pulling timing, so IAT's would be a non issue.

    The IC-degas-pump-HE is one big loop. The IC extracts heat.... and the HE dumps the extracted heat. A bigger pump alone, will just circulate hot water. You require the bigger HE, to take advantage of the bigger pump. The 13/14 GT-500 HE is 3.25" thick. A fan directly behind a HE is good in staging lines, pointless on a road course. Typ fan velocity is only 16-20 mph.... + impedes airflow on a road course. Hood vents will enhance airflow.

    That poor 5r55s needs a 2nd tranny cooler, synthetic ATF, deeper tranny pan, JDM catch can.

    Carmen on the Roush forum has been using 50-50 distilled water-meth for > 10 yrs.....and road races the car. Pair of 225 ml sprayers plumbed into M90 blower elbow.
     
  18. DiMora

    DiMora More Is Better

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    A few things here. First off, I speak from experience, as I have EXTENSIVE mods done in this area. Probably more than most.

    Meth:

    It is fine and I've been running it for 5+ years. Every throttle application. I run it 100% of the time. My rotors are fine and Eaton says no problemo on the rotor coating. Snow Performance says inject it BEFORE the throttle body - which is what I do. The key is to get a fine atomized mist...it is HOT in there...there isn't fluid collecting as you state. I'm running a Roush TVS R2300.

    Cooling:

    In order of importance, based on my experiments and mods...I would say it goes: Pump, coolant line size, heat exchanger.

    The degas bottle is a double-edged sword. More on that in a second.

    For your pump choice, do NOT pick a pump based on advertised flow rate. Those rates are worthless. You need REAL WORLD testing through the restrictive system. That testing has been done already. The best pump is the Stewart-EMP ST-1030085005p0005B

    The second best is the Shelby 2013 GT500 pump.

    Both have good flow rates through the restrictive 3/4" inlet and outlet of your intercooler.

    Spend the money and go with the Stewart so you are future-proof. Install is NOT plug-and-play since you will need to orient it correctly...be prepared for some fabrication.

    Second best thing you can do is increase the line size. I run 1" silicone lines.

    Third most important is to replace your heat exchanger to a big one. Fans have a minimal impact...just a degree or two based on what I can tell. Once the car is moving, they don't do much. I do not agree with DOB that fans harm your cooling, but I don't think they help much unless you are sitting in traffic or in the staging lanes....and again...they only help you a few degrees - if that.

    The degas bottle: Bigger helps prevent heat soak (it takes longer for the coolant to heat up)...but once it is hot, it is harder to cool down. It acts as a buffer. A capacitor. I think SMALLER is better here...so that once your car is moving, it cools down quickly...the exception is drag racing where you want a large icebox - to add ice. I run an icebox...mine has custom 1.25" -20AN bung-ring inlets and outlets (I wanted to be future-proof)...I'm then necked down to -16AN plumbing...but I never use it. I'd rather have a smaller plastic bottle to act as a fill / burp reservoir...and then run a partial bypass system like DOB suggests; I may go in that direction at a later date.

    I flow a real-world tested 14GPM with my mods.

    Read this:

    https://www.s197forum.com/threads/dimoras-intercooling-system-upgrade-operation-iceman.98185/
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2019 at 12:14 PM
    1950StangJump$ likes this.
  19. Laga

    Laga Member

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    “The Eaton rotor groups supplied with the E-Force supercharger systems are intended to run “Dry”. If you would like to install methanol injection it is ideal to run a port style system after the rotor group. The use of methanol injection will void the supercharger and the powertrain warranty if eligible.”
    The above is from Edelbrock’s website.

    I’ve also discussed water/ meth with Lito.
    His reply,
    “I do not recommend them on PD supercharger setups as yours. You can run into distribution issues if used for octane and for cooling, as you would inject before the supercharger, you'd only cool that. “

    I’m sticking with the above recommendations. Going to get larger heat exchanger and still doing research to find most effective pump.
     
  20. DiMora

    DiMora More Is Better

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    I've run meth for many years. Zero issues. The meth does cool the rotors...which also means cooler intake air and lower IAT’s. I can watch temps drop as I do a pass. It’s very effective.

    From Snow Performance:

    "Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge."

    Let us know if you find a pump that beats the Stewart EMP.

    There’s theory - and there’s real-world testing and results. My information is real-world and my results are benefitting my car right now.

    By all means...buy that pump...install it...and test the flow rate. I’d love an even better pump than what I have. Let us know how it plays out.

    Shane
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019 at 11:41 AM
    Racer47 likes this.