JDM 302E Engine Owners - Check In!!

[AutoXRacer]

8 cylinders x 3 valves per...24 seals

Unless you're counting the seats as being a seal, which in theory it is.

No, typo...sorry.

 

[AutoXRacer]

The heads were inspected at our shop, had we seen any issues at the time or concerns we would have addressed them. The guides and seals were not installed by JDM, this was done by Ford....not livernois either. When installing springs and cams your not tearing down the heads completely. If you wanted a valve job or CNC work then yes the heads get stripped down to bare castings. I don't think the oil is passing by the seals, something tells me its coming through the guides.

I noticed in the pictures you posted of the cylinders that the tops of the pistons looked brand new. They are so clean because there is too much fuel going into your cylinders. Compression and leak down looked good but I think the rings may be letting oil past if the cylinders are really that washed down. Oil is being sucked past the rings and valves back into the intake chamber. Then the oil seeps down past the guides when the motor is shut off and sits overnight or for a period of time.

Get the motor out, get the heads off. Get a visual inspection of everything, then move from there. We are all just kicking the can around until its apart then we'll know for sure.

JimIII

How can you tell if you have too much fuel? Wouldn't the wideband indicate a rich mixture?

Why would you expect the top of the pistons to be dirty with only 10K miles?

 

[JimIII@JDM]

How can you tell if you have too much fuel? Wouldn't the wideband indicate a rich mixture?

Why would you expect the top of the pistons to be dirty with only 10K miles?

I can tell because the tops of your pistons look brand new. The only thing that is going to keep them looking that clean is excess fuel. Its not just wide open throttle. Too much fuel at idle, tip in, cruise, or WOT can cause this. The tops of the pistons should have a nice dark almost black look to them from combustion and carbon. Your pistons look like they have 10 miles on them not 10K.

JimIII

 

[JimIII@JDM]

This is an example from a 5.4L 4V Cobra Jet engine we built. These pistons have 4 1/4 mile runs on them. They were even wiped down after the engine came out of the car. The only reason the engine came out was because it went through NHRA Tech after setting a new Super Stock B Automatic Record!!

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Here are pictures of your pistons that you posted. They look like they came out of the box and have never been run. The only thing that will keep them clean like this is too much fuel.

 

[AutoXRacer]

This is an example from a 5.4L 4V Cobra Jet engine we built. These pistons have 4 1/4 mile runs on them. They were even wiped down after the engine came out of the car. The only reason the engine came out was because it went through NHRA Tech after setting a new Super Stock B Automatic Record!!

Man, I thought to make piston look like that you needed 100K miles or so.

I would have thought piston looked new for a long time. Why would the carbon stick to the top of the pistons like that.
My stock 64K didn't have pistons that looked that dark either...they were more brown.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

These look good, the pistons in your motor right now look polished! What you see above is normal carbon build up and will happen very quickly if the motor is seeing the correct amount of fuel. The carbon sticks to the piston because of the extreme amounts of heat the cylinder is seeing during combustion. Excess fuel will clean it off however.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I am thinking of replacing the 80LB injectors. I am thinking my issue with running a little rich are the injectors. The spray pattern on them is horrible from what I have read and seen.

So what is the difference between these heads (how is one better than the other):

4.6L/5.4L CNC-PORTED 3V CYLINDER HEADS – ASSEMBLED
M-6049-N3VPA RH
M-6050-N3VPA LH
• 53cc combustion chamber (stock head is 51cc)
• Intake runner volume: 202cc (stock 174cc)
• Exhaust runner volume: 73cc (stock 62cc)
• Intake flow rate at .600 lift: 272 cfm
• Exhaust flow rate at .600 lift: 190 cfm

and

4.6L/5.4L HIGH-FLOW CNC CYLINDER HEADS
M-6049-463VP3 RH
M-6050-463VP3 LH
• 48cc combustion chamber (stock head is 51cc)
• Increased size 35.0 mm intake valves (stock intake valve is 34 mm)
• Increased size inconel 38.5 mm exhaust valves (stock exhaust valve is 37.5 mm)
• Intake runner volume: 214cc (stock 174cc)
• Exhaust runner volume: 73cc (stock 62cc)
• Intake flow rate at .600 lift: 291 cfm
• Exhaust flow rate at .600 lift: 191 cfm (no pipe)
(bronze guides)

 

[JimIII@JDM]

I am thinking of replacing the 80LB injectors. I am thinking my issue with running a little rich are the injectors. The spray pattern on them is horrible from what I have read and seen.

So what is the difference between these heads (how is one better than the other):

4.6L/5.4L CNC-PORTED 3V CYLINDER HEADS – ASSEMBLED
M-6049-N3VPA RH
M-6050-N3VPA LH
• 53cc combustion chamber (stock head is 51cc)
• Intake runner volume: 202cc (stock 174cc)
• Exhaust runner volume: 73cc (stock 62cc)
• Intake flow rate at .600 lift: 272 cfm
• Exhaust flow rate at .600 lift: 190 cfm

and

4.6L/5.4L HIGH-FLOW CNC CYLINDER HEADS
M-6049-463VP3 RH
M-6050-463VP3 LH
• 48cc combustion chamber (stock head is 51cc)
• Increased size 35.0 mm intake valves (stock intake valve is 34 mm)
• Increased size inconel 38.5 mm exhaust valves (stock exhaust valve is 37.5 mm)
• Intake runner volume: 214cc (stock 174cc)
• Exhaust runner volume: 73cc (stock 62cc)
• Intake flow rate at .600 lift: 291 cfm
• Exhaust flow rate at .600 lift: 191 cfm (no pipe)
(bronze guides)

The High flow CNC heads use a bronze guide which I don't recommend for a street car. The valve train movement in a Supercharged car is too rapid and violent for bronze material. The bronze guides will begin to wear quickly and cause oil consumption Don't want that again do we. If it were a race engine that you were going to tear down once a year and go through it thats fine. Other than that the High flow CNC heads have a smaller combustion chamber because the heads are milled, which is going to raise your compression up about 1/2 a point to over 10:1 (10.3-10.4)

For your combination I would recomend their regular CNC heads, this is what we commonly use on our engine builds now.

I recommended the 60lb injectors from the beginning. I think they will be easier to tune with and sufficient for your power level!

 

[BruceH]

I've never seen non ported heads advertised by frpp that are assembled. What is the part number of those? All I've seen in the catalogue are bare heads with seats and guides, cnc ported assembled heads, and high flow assembled heads.

Gerald, were new stock assembled Ford heads used in your build?

 

[Timmbo]

Man I would pull that engine, crate it, freight it and let JDM do a tear down top to bottom and let them handle process of elimination. You start pulling parts and pieces at home and try to diagnose it long distance its going to be a damn never ending nightmare. JMO.

 

[BadPiggy]

Man I would pull that engine, crate it, freight it and let JDM do a tear down top to bottom and let them handle process of elimination. You start pulling parts and pieces at home and try to diagnose it long distance its going to be a damn never ending nightmare. JMO.

I kinda thought Gerald's whole ordeal has already been a damn never ending nightmare?

I'd put the whole damn car on a hauler and ship it to them. Tell them to call me when it's ready to do a burnout all the way back to WA state!

 

[b00stedgt]

I am glad it's just the heads that are bad and not the short block.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I have a question for you gurus out there...

What do you think of this scenario:

Is it possible to run rich enough to cause the rings to not seat and for oil to seep passed the rings, up to the combustion chamber, through the valve openings, and into the heads?

How much fuel would you have to be rich in order for this to happen?
What would be the indications of running this rich; black cylinder walls, low compression readings, etc...?

Is this even possible? I have heard of oil getting passed the rings, but never make it up through the valves and pool up in the heads.

Let me know your thoughts...

I really need to tear down the motor and see where this oil is coming from.

 

[BadPiggy]

The indication of running rich is those clean ass piston tops.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I agree, but is it possible for blow-by (rings not seated) to push oil up through the valves and up into the heads?

 

[BadPiggy]

I agree, but is it possible for blow-by (rings not seated) to push oil up through the valves and up into the heads?

Technically, "anything" is possible...but that is a highly unlikely scenario.
If oil was getting by the rings, 9 times out of 10 it's going to burn up in the combustion chamber.
If you have oil coming in that way, you have a sumping issue.

I'll be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if that's really your issue anyway, sumping.

 

[b00stedgt]

Do You Have An A/F gauge?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Do You Have An A/F gauge?

Yes sir!! My AFRs are perfect in idle (13.5-15.6), cruise (same as idle), and WOT (11.2 - 11.6).
I am rich in transitional conditions, tip-in and off-throttle for a brief second.

At tip-in and immediately after off-throttle I will hit 10.0 for a split second.

 

[JimIII@JDM]

Yes sir!! My AFRs are perfect in idle (13.5-15.6), cruise (same as idle), and WOT (11.2 - 11.6).
I am rich in transitional conditions, tip-in and off-throttle for a brief second.

At tip-in and immediately after off-throttle I will hit 10.0 for a split second.

Air fuel at idle and cruise should be 14.7:1 and vary slightly. Bouncing between 13.5 and 15.6 is a big variation. Tip in fueling should start at stoichiometric (14.7:1) and drop down as throttle (load) is applied. How far down will your gauge read? Is 10:1 the lowest it will read, maybe its less...maybe its even 9 or 8:1!? Having a 10:1 AF at tip in will over fuel the engine. Proof is the tops of your pistons. This will wash down the cylinder walls and create ring seal issues. Oil can be pulled back past the rings and up into your intake track when coming off throttle because your seeing so much vacuum at that point, the engine tries to pull oil from any where it can. We think the oil your seeing in the heads is coming from this, after the motor sits when you shut it down it drains into the chamber and sits on the back of the valves and tops of the pistons like you showed in your pictures.