Livernois Stage 2 cams

[BruceH]

We only use the Ford OE phasers, and install our limiters. There is no difference between "our phasers" and yours. You want to limit around 10° of travel.

AFAIK Livernois hasn't had the 10 degree limiters available for the 3v phasers for some time. Reading your post would make me think that they are available, is that so?

OP: I've used both the comp and Livernois 20 degree limiters and prefer the Livernois. My reasoning is because they respond to commanded vct retard quicker.

I can also say that I've had 127400 cams at one point. They are nice cams with excellent driveability. You will like them, I've also run them with a D1 Procharger and they worked just fine.

Livernois rep: What's the difference between your NA stage 2 cams and Comp 127500? The published specs are the same. I'd guess that the icl is at 102 also. Do your stage 2 cams have the same icl? How about the ramp rates, are they the same?

BTW I'm running a set of special grind cams that are Livernois branded but they were made by Comp as indicated on the cam card. Does Comp still grind the Livernois cams?

Thanks for the info in advance.

 

[JoshK]

Another question while we have the livernois rep here. I ordered the stage 4 turbo cams as I stated earlier. I called the other day to see when I would receive them. I then asked to confirm that I would get a full cam card on where I should degree the ICL too. To this question I was told that they would not come with a full can card and I need to talk to my machinist about that. I was less than thrilled with this answer. Today when I picked up my engine I spoke with my machinist about it this. He all but laughed and said that is the first time he has ever heard of such a thing. He said every time he has ordered a set of cams they come with a can card that states where to degree intake center line. I agreed with him, and am less than pleased if they do not come with this information.

I spoke with couple other can companies before I decided to order the livernois cams. Each of them gave a the durations, lift, and LSA specs along with where they would have me degree them too for my application.

 

[BruceH]

Another question while we have the livernois rep here. I ordered the stage 4 turbo cams as I stated earlier. I called the other day to see when I would receive them. I then asked to confirm that I would get a full cam card on where I should degree the ICL too. To this question I was told that they would not come with a full can card and I need to talk to my machinist about that. I was less than thrilled with this answer. Today when I picked up my engine I spoke with my machinist about it this. He all but laughed and said that is the first time he has ever heard of such a thing. He said every time he has ordered a set of cams they come with a can card that states where to degree intake center line. I agreed with him, and am less than pleased if they do not come with this information.

I spoke with couple other can companies before I decided to order the livernois cams. Each of them gave a the durations, lift, and LSA specs along with where they would have me degree them too for my application.

That's crazy! Valve timing events are fairly important to know. Not just for degreeing but also for getting the fuel injectors to spray at the right time via the tune.

I'm sure they will come with a cam card. My "special grind" Livernois cams came with a card from Comp. Comp supplies the card with the cams, not Livernois so maybe the rep you spoke to didn't understand the question.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

Our 3V cams are designed by us and executed by Comp. They are our product and even have own part number. You cannot call them to order our parts, as they will direct you to us.

We provide a cam card with all of the "normal" specs. We do not provide anything that would allow for reverse engineering. If you are having a machinist or engine builder assemble your engine I would hope that they would be taking it upon themselves to manually degree the cams. Regardless, you will have all of the measurements necessary to complete your build.

 

[JoshK]

Well that was a long winded "No". I challenge you to call all of the other can manufacturers and ask them if they provide the information on where they want you to degree the ICL to. It has a hell of a lot more to do with than just PTV clearance. Looks like I get to play guess and check with my cams and can fully say that I would not recommend livernois cams to anyone with that answer.

In regards to your first couple sentences. I do believe that L&M engines has their own can numbers as well and can only be ordered through L&M. With that said, once you spend your money with them, they provide you with ALL of the information needed to get the most power out of the cams.

If your cams are that " off the shelf" that it is someone else's job to measure them and come up with the rest of the information, they why would you care about not providing all the information. At that point you are obviously not interested in making sure each individual purchaser gets the most from your product.

My cams show up tomorrow so we shall see I guess.

 

[BruceH]

Well that was a long winded "No". I challenge you to call all of the other can manufacturers and ask them if they provide the information on where they want you to degree the ICL to. It has a hell of a lot more to do with than just PTV clearance. Looks like I get to play guess and check with my cams and can fully say that I would not recommend livernois cams to anyone with that answer.

In regards to your first couple sentences. I do believe that L&M engines has their own can numbers as well and can only be ordered through L&M. With that said, once you spend your money with them, they provide you with ALL of the information needed to get the most power out of the cams.

If your cams are that " off the shelf" that it is someone else's job to measure them and come up with the rest of the information, they why would you care about not providing all the information. At that point you are obviously not interested in making sure each individual purchaser gets the most from your product.

My cams show up tomorrow so we shall see I guess.

Unless something has changed in the last year or so Livernois published specs are exactly the same as Comp for a number of 3v cams. The turbo and supercharger cams are also the same durations and lifts as many (not all) off the shelf Comp cams with the exception of a 113 lsa for supercharger and 114 for turbo.

This comp brochure has been around for a number of years. http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/COMP5-124.pdf

Compare the specs with these for na: https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803114

Supercharged:
https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803115

Turbo:
https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803119

The Livernois specs are at the bottom of each link.

The specs that aren't published but that come with a cam card are icl and valve opening and closing info. My guess is that you will install them with the icl locked at 106-110 degrees. Knowing what to expect for icl would be a help in the build but as you know you will still be able to set them where you want without that knowledge. You will also know what the "as ground" icl is when you degree them. You can plot valve timing events once you know the icl but that info will be on your cam card.

The thing is that there isn't anything "Top Secret" about a cam profile. Any cam shop can figure out the profile of a cam in short order. A set of v blocks and dial indicator would reveal most of a cams specs too. I really don't understand the "Top Secret" aspect of the answer from Livernois.

Josh, just forget about this unnecessary drama and enjoy your car. The cams are going to be awesome.

 

[JoshK]

Unless something has changed in the last year or so Livernois published specs are exactly the same as Comp for a number of 3v cams. The turbo and supercharger cams are also the same durations and lifts as many (not all) off the shelf Comp cams with the exception of a 113 lsa for supercharger and 114 for turbo.

This comp brochure has been around for a number of years. http://www.compcams.com/Base/pdf/COMP5-124.pdf

Compare the specs with these for na: https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803114

Supercharged:
https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803115

Turbo:
https://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803119

The Livernois specs are at the bottom of each link.

The specs that aren't published but that come with a cam card are icl and valve opening and closing info. My guess is that you will install them with the icl locked at 106-110 degrees. Knowing what to expect for icl would be a help in the build but as you know you will still be able to set them where you want without that knowledge. You will also know what the "as ground" icl is when you degree them. You can plot valve timing events once you know the icl but that info will be on your cam card.

The thing is that there isn't anything "Top Secret" about a cam profile. Any cam shop can figure out the profile of a cam in short order. A set of v blocks and dial indicator would reveal most of a cams specs too. I really don't understand the "Top Secret" aspect of the answer from Livernois.

Josh, just forget about this unnecessary drama and enjoy your car. The cams are going to be awesome.

 

[palanza7]

not to jack this thread but - what kind of restriction drop can you expect usually with a custom cam on a supercharger? I'm trying to lose a little PSI in the future here as I'm around 19 and it sounds like a cam would be a win/win. Car is mainly street so nothing too crazy. I have entirely stock heads.

Just want to weigh all options $ wise to lower psi but not sacrifice a bunch of hp.

 

[weather man]

not to jack this thread but - what kind of restriction drop can you expect usually with a custom cam on a supercharger? I'm trying to lose a little PSI in the future here as I'm around 19 and it sounds like a cam would be a win/win. Car is mainly street so nothing too crazy. I have entirely stock heads.

Just want to weigh all options $ wise to lower psi but not sacrifice a bunch of hp.

A freer flowing cam or exhaust that lowers measured boost psi doesn't reduce HP. The pump (engine) is just more efficient, HP usually rises if everything else stays the same.

 

[palanza7]

A freer flowing cam or exhaust that lowers measured boost psi doesn't reduce HP. The pump (engine) is just more efficient, HP usually rises if everything else stays the same.

yeah thats what I was thinking. looking at all options to reduce restriction and figure out what the best bang/buck option will be is all.

 

[JoshK]

Well my cams just showed up and I am even more upset now. The cams came in two white boxes with absolutely no print or markings or any kind anywhere. The ends of the boxes are blank as well. There is no can card of any kind what so ever anywhere.





And one end of the outside box has different tape on it. So does livernois get the cams from comp, then remove everything but the cams themselves and ship on?



Edit:

I just called livernois and the guy on the phone confirmed that they do remove them from the comp boxes and send them on in blank boxes.

 

[weather man]

Good grief, that is BS, that's the kinda crap MMR pulls. L&M had all the info on the box and that is a hell of a lot more custom than Livernois!

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

There not being any info or and inside of the box is the fault of the shipping dept., but we do not hide the cam specs. As stated earlier, the specs are on our site.

Any other build related information can and is gathered when your machinist or professional builder installs your cams.

 

[JoshK]

Part of the cam specs

That is exactly what I told the guy on the phone. I called 3 others about cams and they gave me all the info I wanted to make a decision from. Then you get these shelf cams and its like they are protecting info on who shot Kennedy.

I am really kicking myself for not going with Bullet or L&M now. Dammit I should have known better. Mark at Bullet didn't have to talk to my machinist to give me degree numbers. Neither did the representative from comp and lunati that I talked with. Do you have degree information from L&M Bryan?

 

[weather man]

Part of the cam specs

That is exactly what I told the guy on the phone. I called 3 others about cams and they gave me all the info I wanted to make a decision from. Then you get these shelf cams and its like they are protecting info on who shot Kennedy.

I am really kicking myself for not going with Bullet or L&M now. Dammit I should have known better. Mark at Bullet didn't have to talk to my machinist to give me degree numbers. Neither did the representative from comp and lunati that I talked with. Do you have degree information from L&M Bryan?

This is what was on the end of the box. If Danny needs more, he would just call Mike direct at L&M.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I am sorry that you feel that way, and I will take the responsibility for you receiving your cams without the required reference information. However, the specs that are in my prior post, our site is more than enough information to make an edified buying decision. The only other info that would be on a cam card would be:

3V CUSTOM TURBO CAMS STAGE 4
LOBE 19244/19254 Separation Angle 114
237/240 .547/.555

 

[JoshK]

Here is an actual cam card for those that don't know.

 

[eighty6gt]

can a guy not put a degree wheel on the engine, and a dial gauge on a valve, and get whatever information they want? I'm reasonably sure I could.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

You (your builder) should be using a degree wheel regardless. That was the point I made earlier on.

 

[JoshK]

I have a degree wheel.

I guess, I'm sorry for thinking the ones selling the cams should tell you where to set them. Seems all the other companies do, but I'm wrong.