New Motor - Piston Ring Break-In/Seating???

[lethe]

Does arp give a value to use with their lube? I'm going to guess it's 100 since both of you used 100. 70 could be the spec for a different kind of lube like moly.

ARP is 100.

 

[BruceH]

I think arp says 90 with their arp lube , arp lube is moly lube. I was thinking 70ft lbs would be closer to a oil torque spec? I dunno, just seems low.

I just looked it up and yes, it is 100 with their lube. ARP lube isn't the same as moly.

I was thinking the same about oil. Even though I have arp2000 rod bolts I still used 30 weight oil for lube and a different spec. It was lower than with arp lube. I did it because Manley specs oil with their rods even though they use arp bolts.

 

[Department Of Boost]

In 2004 Ducati started shipping their new bikes with synthetic oil in them. We had issues with the customer bikes that followed the recommended break in procedure. They had a ton of blow-by, ate oil, didn't make power, etc. We went through 10-15 motors under warranty. A few of them multiple times. One day we got the bright idea to take one of these "bad" motors and put the cheapest oil we could find in it. We put $.49/qt oil in it, ran its guts out on the dyno, and it finally "broke in", stopped burning oil, had great leak down numbers and made normal power. Switched it back to synthetic and everyone lived happily ever after.

From that point we put cheap non synthetic oil in new bikes going to "pussies", then switched them to synthetic when it was in for their 600-1000mi first service.

We left the synthetic oil in the bikes that were going straight to the track, or were bought by your more aggressive rider.

I've been breaking in all sorts of motors, everything from factory stock to full blown 10/10ths race motors with 10 heat cycles and then rage on it for 20yrs. I've yet to have one that didn't break in correctly.

 

[Marc s]

I didn't read every post so forgive me if this was already asked.

OP, when you first started the new engine, was your startup tune overly rich? I ask this because an overly rich condition will wash the cylinders and could lead to to poor ring seal.

That being said, every engine that I build gets put on the dyno the same day. Bring it up to temp, shut it off, check for leaks, check the fluids, and then load it against the dyno brake. After about 10 minutes of that, the tuning process begins and it's wide open throttle. Being easy on engines during break-in mostly goes back to the days of cast iron top rings.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So you did have a build sheet. Good.

The bearings are a little over stock but not much. The piston to bore is tight for Manley 2618 pistons. They generally specify .003-.0035" depending on application. I don't see the ring clearances but I'd bet they are good.

I have a question for you Gerald. Do you let the motor come completely up to temp before driving it? The 2618 pistons expand as they heat which is why the ptb is .0027", to allow for the expansion. Until they expand you will have some blowby. I don't know how much but it could explain your concerns. Everything could be fine with the motor.

I used to let the engine warm up to at least 150 before driving it. Now, I just let it run until it hits 110-120. I drive it easy, meaning no WOT until its fully warmed up.

I just installed the home depot water/oil separator. I had to buy the big $25 one as they no longer carry the little cheap ones. Anyway, I started the engine and let it warm up to 160 and blipped the throttle; RPMs spiked at 4,500. No oil. Let it idle for a couple more minutes and blipped the throttle again this time going up to 5,500.
Vacuum spiked to 28 in/Hg and held for 1-2 seconds at 26 in/Hg until RPMs lowered.

I checked the oil separator and there was oil dipping inside the walls. The engine only ran for maybe 5-6 mins. Doesn't seem like its pulling oil on idle. So I will drive the car for a couple of days and see how much oil I get.

Seems like good news I think...???
The oil is being pulled out of the valve cover...

I guess the next question would be why?
Is it due to the high vacuum?
Is it due to the inherent design of the PCV system plumbed right before the supercharger rotors, thus again creating enough vacuum to pull the vaporized oil?

I have seem many race cars/motors with much less horsepower than mine run breathers. Is there a reason why race motors run breathers?

Is there a horsepower range where the PCV system should be eliminated?


Marc s: I don't think the AFRs were overly rich. The motor did not see WOT for a while. And when we started data logging, the AFRs were on the leaner side of 11.9-12.1 at WOT.

 

[BruceH]

Have you checked into whether or not the aftermarket valve covers have an internal splash shield like the stock ones have? How much oil are you adding between oil changes and how long is that in miles?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Have you checked into whether or not the aftermarket valve covers have an internal splash shield like the stock ones have? How much oil are you adding between oil changes and how long is that in miles?

No I have not checked. They are Ford Racing valve covers, so I assume they should be like stock. But I'll try to find out.

I can't say how much oil I am adding between oil changes for sure, but I would guess maybe less than 1 quart to no more than 1 quart.

Like I said, I add roughly 0.5 to 1 oz of oil every 2-3 days; just commuting to work and back.

Whats interesting is that I checked the oil separator again before going out and there was a very small puddle of oil, maybe the equivalent of a drop or two of oil after the engine running for 5-6 mins with 2 throttle blips.

I drove it last night to dinner roughly 30 miles roundtrip. I'm going to check how much oil has accumulated.

But seeing the quantity of oil in the separator just from the initial test, I am fairly certain that's where my oil consumption issue is coming from.

Seems like I'll be installing a breather catch can setup...

More to come.

 

[BruceH]

Then all that vapor will be coating the inside of your engine bay instead of nicely accumulating in the catch can. Well, not all of it. The stuff you smell in the cabin will be in the cabin.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Then all that vapor will be coating the inside of your engine bay instead of nicely accumulating in the catch can. Well, not all of it. The stuff you smell in the cabin will be in the cabin.

You think there will that much oil blowing out into the catch can?
I thought with a long enough line going to the breather catch can that it would have enough cool to condense by the time it reaches the can.

Plus not having vacuum to pull the oil out, I am hoping most if not all the oil being currently accumulated in the oil separator would stay in the valve cover/engine.

My ultimate goal is to stop the oil consumption which seems to be caused by oil being pulled from the valve cover PCV.

I looked in the American Muscle site for the valve covers and they have a picture of the underside. Seems like there is no PCV valve or shield.
See link: http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-valve-covers-black.html

 

[BruceH]

There are sheilds in those pics. Also what looks to be a pcv valve on the drivers side. Oil isn't splashing out if your covers look like those.

Edit: If the motor isn't consuming oil I don't understand the concern. Oil is cheap. Vacuum on a motor is a good thing imo. It pulls all that nasty air out. The catch can is pulling contaminated air out and condensing the oil from the air. A pd blower will pull more out but it's something that comes with having one. It's your motor and your car. Lot's of people put breathers on their motors and they do just fine. I'd rather add a little oil between changes than deal with breathers but that's me. You will figure out what's right for you.

 

[AutoXRacer]

There are sheilds in those pics. Also what looks to be a pcv valve on the drivers side. Oil isn't splashing out if your covers look like those.

That's why I am thinking its vacuum related.


Update:

Just checked the oil separator:

This is 0.25oz of oil that was accumulated in approximately 30 miles of driving; normal driving with one WOT in 3rd and part of 4th to pass.

 

[HellsBells]

That's why I am thinking its vacuum related.


Update:

Just checked the oil separator:


This is 0.25oz of oil that was accumulated in approximately 30 miles of driving; normal driving with one WOT in 3rd and part of 4th to pass.

I'm sure it depends on the motor but mine didn't even accumulate that much over 5000 miles between oil changes. Seems a bit excessive IMO but I have heard of people collecting a ton of oil in those things.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I'm sure it depends on the motor but mine didn't even accumulate that much over 5000 miles between oil changes. Seems a bit excessive IMO but I have heard of people collecting a ton of oil in those things.

What I would like to know is why?

I am being hopeful and hoping its due to a tight engine with strong vacuum pulling the oil out.

But what could be other reasons? Why do some people get a little and others a lot; is it dependent on the type of mods?

 

[BruceH]

What I would like to know is why?

I am being hopeful and hoping its due to a tight engine with strong vacuum pulling the oil out.

But what could be other reasons? Why do some people get a little and others a lot; is it dependent on the type of mods?

I had more with a whipple than I've had na or with a centri. Like you previously mentioned the pd blower is putting a good vacuum on it all the time.

IIRC I went through about .5 quarts of oil between change intervals of 2.5 to 3k miles.

That amount of oil loss is acceptable to me. I like knowing that the motor isn't burning it but even if it was it still wouldn't be that big of a deal imo. I'm thinking that your motor/blower combo is working very well if this is the only issue and to me it's a non issue.

We all have different opinions but to me it sounds like your motor is doing fine. I've had factory motors that used a lot more oil. The worst was a 2002 Jetta with a 2.0 that used 1 quart every 2000 miles. I've owned quite a few vehicles that used .5 to 1 quart between oil changes and didn't smoke.

 

[HellsBells]

Like Bruce said, I don't think it's a big deal either--especially if you're able to catch most of it instead of burning it.

I would think tighter clearances would create less blow by. Have you done a leak down compression test yet? That would be a good indicator to see if your cylinders are healthy and the rings are seated nicely.

 

[AutoXRacer]

No, I have not done a leak down test. I would like to though; I'll have to talk to Lee. lol

JDM says these motors consume 1 to 1.5 quarts per oil change interval. I think thats a little excessive. But if they leave the PCV system fully functional, then I could see how that would be a possibility.

If I was an engine builder/shop, I would design my engines/setups to not consume any oil at all in between oil changes. All the cars I have ever owned consumed zero oil. The oil level stayed exactly the same when it was time to dump the oil.

But then again, this is my first supercharged car. I've had turbos, even those didn't consume oil.


So a question for you gurus...

Is it safe to run a breather catch can on these motors? Specifically regarding bottom-end pressure build up.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So here is how much oil I have collected after a full tank of fuel...approx. 175 miles.

The quantity is basically 0.66 oz.

Seems a little much to me as with my oil M90 I used to collect that much after 3,000 miles.

Anxiously waiting on Stef's breather catch can to show up... lol

 

[tmcolegr]

so in 3K miles (1 oil change) that's less than 12 oz.

 

[AutoXRacer]

so in 3K miles (1 oil change) that's less than 12 oz.

Doesn't sound like much, but that's pretty much a can of soda/pop.

That's a lot of oil...at least to me.

I am used to motors consuming/burning a lot less. Maybe 1oz per oil change. With this being a brand new motor, I was not expecting this.

My oil dip stick just now was marking on the lower half of the cross hatch. I should have taken a pic. But to me that's not normal. You shouldn't have to check your oil every 2-3 days of putting around town.

My dip stick oil level does not stay leveled for more than 1 day.
With 400 miles on the new oil, I have already added 1/4 quart of oil thus far. Harder I drive her, more oil disappears.

Its just hard for me to think this is normal.


BTW, is the 2nd picture showing up sideways for you guys?

 

[BruceH]

It looks like you are taking out condensed vapors, not oil per se. I wouldn't want that stuff staying in the motor. I'd much rather take it out and replace with fresh oil, but that's me.

Did you get your breathers on? Watch your fuel trims after you put them on. Mine changed believe it or not.