Trying to eliminate the gap

[Pony DNA]

Now isnt this better than Mustang forums !

Oh GOD yes!

O.K. I'm going to kiss and make up now.

 

[s197shockwave]

LOL!

you still did not show us your car. I am just curious.

If cutting one coil does do something what is it?
Its not something I noticed? The suspension travel is still there. The ride is exactly the same. Maybe your right the spring rate does change but its not a change that one can notice.

I would like to go coil overs.
If I had the funds I would tub the rear, bag it or use coil overs and shove some 345/30/18 in the rear.



The rubbing is not an issue at all. I loaded my trunk with at least 120lbs of crap and went for a test drive. While yes it did rub sometimes it was not hard rubbing or hitting.
Most of the tire tucks into the fender.
Again this will be addressed with the wheels I will be purchasing.

^^^ I am sure all these cars look like crap to some.

 

[luckyone]

those cars look sexy to me. I like a good tastefully lowered car.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Point one: The very act of cutting the coil, unless you use a waterjet, will compromise the temper of the spring steel and alter the rate of the spring (downwards).

Point two: cutting a coil off without increasing the spring rate creates a net reduction in suspension travel at a given loading. For the sake of argument (simplified for clarity), if the stock spring rate was 200lb/in, and had 4" of travel, it would take a 800lb force to compress the suspension to the bump stop. If you cut 2" off, it will only take 400lbs of force to put it on the stops. If you install 2" drop springs, but up the rate to 400lb/in, then you will still have only 2" of travel, just like the cut springs, but it will take 800lb of force to put it there, just like the stock springs.

Point three: Personally, I think the pics of the early iron sitting in the weeds are fantastic. Those are beautifully restyled cars, particularly the last one! HOWEVER this is a sub-forum dedicated to actively using our cars in an open-track or autocross environment, and asking about cosmetic suspension mods is out of place here. Not a social gaffe, it's just that the populace of this sub-forum is rabidly focused on "how will it handle," and while we all appreciate a nicely-done car, we're a lot more interested in function over form.

Point three: lowering the car will compromise the suspension angles. Period. That can be compensated for, but if you're of the mindset that cutting springs is the proper way to adjust suspension height, then the required work to compensate for the compromised angles will be far beyond your interest to execute.

Summary: My car is by no means a 4x4, but over the winter, it's losing some of it's drop, since the performance is suffering far too much due to the lowered roll center, and shifted anti-squat and anti-dive angles. To you, beauty is having no rake. To me, beauty is being able to threshold brake with R-compound tires, and not have the rear end wiggle like an over-excited puppy...

 

[Pony DNA]

I am trying to eliminate the rake that our cars suffer from. Some like it I hate it. As it sits now the rear is still 1/2" higher than the front. Also the gap between the rear tire and the fender is shrinking nicely.

<<SNIPPED>>

Hey S197shock,

I was just messing with your head so don't take it too seriously. If I chapped your panties I appologize.

As far as stance goes personally I like the S197 cars both ways. I've seen S197's that were raked that really caught my eye and cars that were leveled out that looked "right." It really depends on how the car is sitting on it's wheels and tires.

Back in the day we all used to draw the pony and muscles cars with big-ass tires sticking out the sides because this is what we saw on the street and in the magazines. Plus R.F. was huge and the illustrations that Ed Roth and his wannabe copiers produced made this look even more popular. But that was great evidence of just how immature the performance wheel industry and the performance parts industry in general was at that time back in the '60's.

This is 2009/10 season and SEMA has managed to help grow the aftermarket auto parts industry into a nearly $40 billion business. There is just no excuse for using wheels that don't fit safely and properly IMO. There was a lot of ignorance back in the day about most things automotive back then. For a perfect example just have a look at any vintage solid axle gasser for stupid and lack of understanding about suspension geometry. IMO there is no stigma associated with being ignorant but it is stupid to remain so.

So here is the problem. Experience has shown many folks that the S197 chassis cannot be lowered much more than about 1" or the ride and handling will suffer due to the rear axle hitting the frame rails. The same issue is happening at the front of the car but in front it is the tops of the strut bodies that are getting hammered on by the bumpstops and the strut mount body. You can oversome this to some degree by increasing the spring rates front and rear. But as many folks have discovered (I told them, honest!) you still cannot increase spring rates enough to avoid bottoming out if you reduce ride height much more than that 1" number. The problem is if you have a spring rate that is high enough to stay off the bumpstops you just kill your ride and traction on irregular surfaces.

The best spring rate for a road or street car is really as low a rate as possible to stay off the stops and control body roll at whatever ride height you are trying to maintain.

This is why anybody who is serious about handling and can find the scratch eventually ends up with a coilover suspension. You can pick the best spring rates for your use unlike the normal McPherson strut type springs. You can seleect the ride height that works on your local roads or tracks unlike normal McPherson strut type springs. You can also corner balance your chassis unlike normal McPherson type struts. And also very importantly you can usually at least adjust rebound damping and possibly bump and high-speed rebound on the BIG buck coilovers.

So to make it fair for you here is an image of my car sitting on Mulholland last year. Sitting on custom Steeda coilovers held up by Hypercoil 325lb/in springs in front and 250lb/in springs out back. Staggered Saleen PJ Edition wheels with Goodyear Eagle F1 UHP A/S tires in 275/40x19 all around. I quickly pulled off the 275's in front and replaced them with matching Eagle F1 UHP A/S tires sized 245/45x19 to improve steering response and turn in when I installed a Saleen PJ Edition Watt's link. These changes made a huge difference in steering response.

 

[s197shockwave]

Point one: The very act of cutting the coil, unless you use a waterjet, will compromise the temper of the spring steel and alter the rate of the spring (downwards).

Point two: cutting a coil off without increasing the spring rate creates a net reduction in suspension travel at a given loading. For the sake of argument (simplified for clarity), if the stock spring rate was 200lb/in, and had 4" of travel, it would take a 800lb force to compress the suspension to the bump stop. If you cut 2" off, it will only take 400lbs of force to put it on the stops. If you install 2" drop springs, but up the rate to 400lb/in, then you will still have only 2" of travel, just like the cut springs, but it will take 800lb of force to put it there, just like the stock springs.

Point three: Personally, I think the pics of the early iron sitting in the weeds are fantastic. Those are beautifully restyled cars, particularly the last one! HOWEVER this is a sub-forum dedicated to actively using our cars in an open-track or autocross environment, and asking about cosmetic suspension mods is out of place here. Not a social gaffe, it's just that the populace of this sub-forum is rabidly focused on "how will it handle," and while we all appreciate a nicely-done car, we're a lot more interested in function over form.

Point three: lowering the car will compromise the suspension angles. Period. That can be compensated for, but if you're of the mindset that cutting springs is the proper way to adjust suspension height, then the required work to compensate for the compromised angles will be far beyond your interest to execute.

Summary: My car is by no means a 4x4, but over the winter, it's losing some of it's drop, since the performance is suffering far too much due to the lowered roll center, and shifted anti-squat and anti-dive angles. To you, beauty is having no rake. To me, beauty is being able to threshold brake with R-compound tires, and not have the rear end wiggle like an over-excited puppy...

You are absolutely right I am in the wrong section of the forum.
I appreciate your explanation of how one can affect the function of a spring by cutting it.
In the end for me it is about beauty.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

You are absolutely right I am in the wrong section of the forum.
I appreciate your explanation of how one can affect the function of a spring by cutting it.
In the end for me it is about beauty.

Hey, it's all good, here as well. I just didn't want you to think we're ganging up on you because we don't like your car, or the aesthetic it represents, and believe me, I for one drool over a well done resto-mod!

 

[s197shockwave]

PONY DNA I have to admit that your car sits very nice.
What would someone expect to pay for a decent coilover suspension? $1000+?