Help on harmonic balancer

teeje

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Hey everyone..my build is progressing much faster than I thought. I have a built forged block with a forged Manley 8 bolt crank je pistons 9.5:1 comp molnar rods boundary oil pump, Todd Warren custom cams, t56 magnum xl, and much more....question on balancers....which brand to go with and why? I plan on spinning my blower higher. I have a kennebell 2.6 intercooled supercharger with a 3.5 pulley now making 12 psi. Should I just stay stock size?

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msvela448

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Love my ATI Super Damper. Fully rebuildable. They cut 2 additional grooves on the hub for me when I switched to an 8-rib set up. Just overall a great product.

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teeje

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Love my ATI Super Damper. Fully rebuildable. They cut 2 additional grooves on the hub for me when I switched to an 8-rib set up. Just overall a great product.

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Should I just go 8 rib from the get go? What would I need other than an 8 rib blower and alternator pulley? Well..I guess the power steering pump and ac compressor right?

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Racer47

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There's only 2 choices, ATI and innovate. I went +10% innovate 8 rib. Going 8 rib is kind of a pain but I felt ambitious.

Do you have cam specs? Why Warren instead of comp? I'm still on stock cams but keep thinking I need to upgrade.
 

EBABlacknChrome

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Power steering, alt, a/c, idlers, tensioner and blower. All can but blower can be sourced from a a navigator and think v10 motor. I have the part numbers wrote down I can get you. There in here somewhere to if you search for them.

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msvela448

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I also have the part numbers to go 8-rib. I think it should be considered mandatory with a blower set up.

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eighty6gt

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Love my ATI Super Damper. Fully rebuildable. They cut 2 additional grooves on the hub for me when I switched to an 8-rib set up. Just overall a great product.

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Huh. I phoned them and asked if I could buy an 8 rib outer hub and they told me tough cookies, buy another $700 balancer. Thanks for the idea I can probably do this myself.
 

msvela448

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Huh. I phoned them and asked if I could buy an 8 rib outer hub and they told me tough cookies, buy another $700 balancer. Thanks for the idea I can probably do this myself.

They just cut 2 additional grooves in my 6-rib one (there's room where the timing marks are printed) . They wouldn't sell me an 8-rib outer hub either... But if memory serves it was only about $75 for the work.
 

eighty6gt

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yes, and since car is down anyway I can send balancer off, or again do it myself just get the geometry right, thanks again for the idea... and also I can make the basis of the entire pulley set on a lathe at work.
 

Midlife Crises

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I just purchased an ATI damper for my 4.6 from Summit. I stayed with the 6 grove and it was no where near $700 bucks. I will install it this winter.
 

teeje

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I got the ATI 6 rib stock diameter. Question on the crank bolt...will the stock length arp crank bolt be long enough or do I need to get the cam bolt for a mini Cooper? I know its not that much longer. I have a Manley 8 bolt crank.

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teeje

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There's only 2 choices, ATI and innovate. I went +10% innovate 8 rib. Going 8 rib is kind of a pain but I felt ambitious.

Do you have cam specs? Why Warren instead of comp? I'm still on stock cams but keep thinking I need to upgrade.
Went with warren instead of shelf cams for my goals. Done want too much overlap. More overlap =less vacuum =bad for blowers

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msvela448

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I got the ATI 6 rib stock diameter. Question on the crank bolt...will the stock length arp crank bolt be long enough or do I need to get the cam bolt for a mini Cooper? I know its not that much longer. I have a Manley 8 bolt crank.

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The ARP bolt will work... But I'd get the longest bolt you can put in there.

I actually had my crank snout drilled all the way back to the #1 main journal and threaded for a 5.25" long, 9/16" ARP stud. Had the keyway cut the full length of the snout too for square 3/16" tool-steel key instead of the wimpy woodruff style key that's in there from the factory. I realize that probably nobody is going to do those things just for a simple damper install. But I wanted to give y'all some ideas in case someone was doing a bigger build.

In case anybody wanted a comparison of the hardware on the Crank Stud Mod... On the bottom is the stock 12mm x 1.5 bolt... In the middle is the ARP bolt (Part # 156-2501), and on the top is the 9/16 x 5.25" stud (part # AQ5.250-1LB) and matching 9/16" ARP nut. (Part # AQN12-1)
99f0407e6dde6c8113bccf6e6dcd53ef.jpg
6112d3d0d5436de66fd8f59b463db7ee.jpg


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07 Boss

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Don't want too much overlap. More overlap =less vacuum =bad for blowers

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Thank you, I've been preaching that forever. Folks seem to like to put Hot Rods and Thumpers and Rockers with boost and I just shake my head. Never understood that.
 

teeje

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The ARP bolt will work... But I'd get the longest bolt you can put in there.

I actually had my crank snout drilled all the way back to the #1 main journal and threaded for a 5.25" long, 9/16" ARP stud. Had the keyway cut the full length of the snout too for square 3/16" tool-steel key instead of the wimpy woodruff style key that's in there from the factory. I realize that probably nobody is going to do those things just for a simple damper install. But I wanted to give y'all some ideas in case someone was doing a bigger build.

In case anybody wanted a comparison of the hardware on the Crank Stud Mod... On the bottom is the stock 12mm x 1.5 bolt... In the middle is the ARP bolt (Part # 156-2501), and on the top is the 9/16 x 5.25" stud (part # AQ5.250-1LB) and matching 9/16" ARP nut. (Part # AQN12-1)
99f0407e6dde6c8113bccf6e6dcd53ef.jpg
6112d3d0d5436de66fd8f59b463db7ee.jpg


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I have the Arp 156-2501 myself. The mini Cooper cam bolt from arp isn't that much longer. Maybe 3 threads or so.

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Midlife Crises

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I actually had my crank snout drilled all the way back to the #1 main journal and threaded for a 5.25" long, 9/16" ARP stud. Had the keyway cut the full length of the snout too for square 3/16" tool-steel key instead of the wimpy woodruff style key that's in there from the factory.
I can’t figure out why you would do this. Have you been throwing dampers off the crank?
 

Midlife Crises

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More overlap =less vacuum =bad for blowers
Blowers don’t care about overlap or vacuum. A little overlap is beneficial in the upper RPM range but too much will push fuel/air mixture out the exhaust at idle. Low vacuum is a problem for the break booster and maybe the bypass valve if you run one.
 

jam07GT

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I can’t figure out why you would do this. Have you been throwing dampers off the crank?

As a side note, Hellcats come from the factory with a damper that is not keyed. Isn't that crazy? Everyone who runs those cars hard pins the crank, which is pretty easy to do and we did that on ours. I just thought I'd mention it because in comparison the 4.6 being keyed is pretty nice. I was actually shocked when I found out that Hellcats come like that. Even the newer ones, too, though they now use a TTY bolt.

I've never given my damper on the 4.6 a second thought.
 

msvela448

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I can’t figure out why you would do this. Have you been throwing dampers off the crank?
Nope...I haven't... But I have seen photos of broken crank snouts, particularly on cars with a crank driven blower. Here's a great discussion about it: https://www.modularfords.com/threads/258205-Overcoming-the-Broken-Crank-Snout-Statistics

My mentality is that I have built a few engines and I don't want to build more... So, when you're that deep into a build it's "cheap insurance". Cost me about $150 for the machine work and hardware for that crank snout mod.

I chalk it up to the same reason people buy ARP studs instead of bolts, or billet oil pump gears, or billet timing chain guides. I also bought the Cobra Engineering timing chain dowel kit to increase those to M8 threads, and Manley Pro Billet rods instead of the forged H-Beam ones. (I have broken an H-beam rod though... So that one is justified).

I've never broken a headbolt, or rod bolt, or main bolt... But I always use ARP studs and ARP2000 rod bolts when doing a rebuild.

I've never broken an oil pump, but there are some stories out there of it happening, so I have billet gears in mine and the machined groove for the o-ring at the block surface.

I've never seen, nor heard, nor experienced a timing chain guide, or dowel breaking... But the billet ones definitely won't (and they look cool under the timing chain cover [emoji41]) .

When it comes to building an engine I tend to always believe it will be the last one I'm going to do... So I want to make it indestructible.... And then I usually find a way to destroy it. That's the game I suppose.

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teeje

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I ended up having Joey send me the longer crank bolt just for extra insurance. Many people using aftermarket cranks and ati balancers use the longer mini Cooper cam bolt. I have my engine at the machine shop right now so I can't check it but for the peace of mind I got the longer one.

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