WE SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT NOTHING BUT THE RPM ACT!!!!!

[luillo]

Yes, all other post shouldn't be posted at all. If the Democratic government gets away with this communistic BS, we will have nothing to talk in this forums. I feel like i just woke up from a 2020 COVID coma into "no more racing, sell my GT500" dream...

What the hell is this country thinking? I hope those who thought only about the hate for Trump and voted democrat but love racing and the liberty to modify their cars think again now. I hope is not too late to stop this in 2024.

 

[stkjock]

this has been something going on for years, it's not about who's in the White House.

keep this thread on topic of the Act and voice your concerns, let's not make this a D vs R debate

 

[RED09GT]

If you want to blame someone, blame the rollin' coal crowd. Those stupid assholes blowing black smoke into people's convertibles and other ignorant shit got this all started.

 

[Aerofinz]

Stripping our cars of cats and then fooling ourselves into thinking we've gained appreciable street performance while somehow eliminating the obvious rich exhaust smell isn't helping our cause either. I got tired of my clothes smelling like exhaust and finally matured (a little) to realize what a PITA I've been forcing everyone in traffic to smell my car. Sometimes we are our worst enemy (IMO).

 

[eighty6gt]

Someone able to summarize?

 

[RED09GT]

Stripping our cars of cats and then fooling ourselves into thinking we've gained appreciable street performance while somehow eliminating the obvious rich exhaust smell isn't helping our cause either. I got tired of my clothes smelling like exhaust and finally matured (a little) to realize what a PITA I've been forcing everyone in traffic to smell my car. Sometimes we are our worst enemy (IMO).

This is also where the EPA failed in the United States. Although there have been aftermarket catalytic converters available, most people don't bother as the law basically says that it is illegal to remove an operating OEM converter-leaving no incentive to paying the extra money vs. the off-road setup.
Instead of it being all illegal, they need to come up with a reasonable system and most reasonable people will abide by it.

 

[Aerofinz]

Someone able to summarize?

Truly no offense intended, but this might be one of those subjects you research yourself vs the opinions of a biased forum. I mean, based on the opening dialogue and 4 letter words, pretty safe to say you will get a very biased and very educated (tongue in cheek) summary. Just sayin.

 

[RED09GT]

Someone able to summarize?

Lund Racing got visited by the EPA about their tuning business.
Similar thing happened to SCT and VMP. Diesel Brothers got huge fines for some of their ignorant crap. Lots of exhaust manufacturers are rumored to no longer be making off-road setups after cease and desist letters, etc...

 

[Juice]

I'm not even sure how this RPM act applies here. We are not turning our street cars into race cars with modding.

 

[Aerofinz]

This is also where the EPA failed in the United States. Although there have been aftermarket catalytic converters available, most people don't bother as the law basically says that it is illegal to remove an operating OEM converter-leaving no incentive to paying the extra money vs. the off-road setup.
Instead of it being all illegal, they need to come up with a reasonable system and most reasonable people will abide by it.

Kinda see your point, not really? I mean who says anyone has to offer an alternative to an authorized/tested manufacturer system designed to meet a requirement in this case smog?

 

[Aerofinz]

this has been something going on for years, it's not about who's in the White House...

Exactly! I'd be more concerned over the higher taxes on gas coming to pay for the EV push and punish us from using gasoline in the first place. That will happen (IMO) much sooner and much more likely.

 

[RED09GT]

Kinda see your point, not really? I mean who says anyone has to offer an alternative to an authorized/tested manufacturer system designed to meet a requirement in this case smog?

Not sure what you are getting at but if there is a framework that allows an aftermarket manufacturer to put out a product and get it certified as legal for road use, how does that not benefit the automotive community? Is having a free-market economy that allows us to have choice a bad thing?

Is the twisted 4 catalytic converter system on an 87 mustang 5.0L the peak of efficiency and emissions performance? Could advancements in technology be used to not only make more power than the 225hp stock rating and improve emissions at the same time?

 

[tjm73]

I've said for literally decades that if the EPA would establish reasonable emissions limits for a given engine regardless of the vehicle it's installed in, the aftermarket would embrace it fully. If the tail pipe emissions of an engine meet or exceed those of when it was in the original chassis, shouldn't that be ok? If I put a 480 hp 5.0 DOHC that meets or exceeds emission limits in my 2013 Focus daily driver, the EPA shouldn't give a shit. If I put a 1990 5.0 into a 1999 Ranger and it runs as clean or cleaner than the 1990 was supposed to run, that's a win. EVAP emissions? Establish limits and a quick inexpensive way to certify the effectiveness and let the aftermarket figure out an acceptable way to meet them. Allow people to meet their goals while being clean and the vast, vast majority of us will do just that.

The EPA goals would be meet and the aftermarket would explode.

 

[Aerofinz]

[QUOTE="RED09GT, post: 2501831, member: 4113"
Is the twisted 4 catalytic converter system on an 87 mustang 5.0L the peak of efficiency and emissions performance? Could advancements in technology be used to not only make more power than the 225hp stock rating and improve emissions at the same time?[/QUOTE]

Aftermarket cats are and have been approved by the EPA. Off-road, of course not, hence the designation "off-road". I'm guessing a quality EPA approved replacement cat for an '87 is likely a better product than it was in '87.

"...EPA has required aftermarket converters to meet certain minimum performance standards while also requiring installers to install the appropriate converters. These requirements make everyone 'play by the same rules' while maximizing the air quality benefits obtained. The policy contains other warranty, reporting and record keeping requirements which make it possible for EPA to enforce the requirements and ensure that the customers get what they pay for. "

 

[tjm73]

Aftermarket cats are and have been approved by the EPA. Off-road, of course not, hence the designation "off-road". I'm guessing a quality EPA approved replacement cat for an '87 is likely a better product than it was in '87.

"...EPA has required aftermarket converters to meet certain minimum performance standards while also requiring installers to install the appropriate converters. These requirements make everyone 'play by the same rules' while maximizing the air quality benefits obtained. The policy contains other warranty, reporting and record keeping requirements which make it possible for EPA to enforce the requirements and ensure that the customers get what they pay for. "

That'd be fine if the EPA hadn't also said it's illegal to remove ANY functioning emissions control device/system or cause it to not function. After a certain time period they shouldn't even really care anymore as the number of "gross polluting" vehicles would be statistically insignificant and the amount of time they are actually used would be minimal at best.

The EPA's goals are not the problem. It's the method to get there that is the problem. The EPA is an un-elected governing body creating and enforcing law that Congress abdicated to them. The EPA should be power checked and put back in it's place.

 

[RED09GT]

Aftermarket cats are and have been approved by the EPA. Off-road, of course not, hence the designation "off-road". I'm guessing a quality EPA approved replacement cat for an '87 is likely a better product than it was in '87.

"...EPA has required aftermarket converters to meet certain minimum performance standards while also requiring installers to install the appropriate converters. These requirements make everyone 'play by the same rules' while maximizing the air quality benefits obtained. The policy contains other warranty, reporting and record keeping requirements which make it possible for EPA to enforce the requirements and ensure that the customers get what they pay for. "

But you can't remove an operating one from any vehicle by the letter of the law, even on a 34 year old vehicle. Enforcement to this point has been lax because no one cared that much and it was a silly law. The problem is that if they start to enforce the law to the letter, that will cause a whole host of implications for the performance parts industry.
We may get to a point where a canned tune is all that we are allowed to run in our vehicles so that drivability issue that a custom tuner was able to sort out will not be possible and you will have an extremely limited number of choices as there will only be certified tunes for certain systems.
If enthusiasts just sit pat at this time, that could be our future.

 

[luillo]

What bothers me about this deal is that if I get a job in Abudabi and take my Shelby there and get it all out, nobody cares. Uncle Sam can’t dictate emissions law outside U.S.

China, India, etc are the worst and they will continue business as usual. If U.S. could negate oil based and coal use in India, they would be responsible for millions of life right after. So is ok for them to produce the highest level of emissions because they are poor but U.S. that is very clean so far is not?


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[RED09GT]

What bothers me about this deal is that if I get a job in Abudabi and take my Shelby there and get it all out, nobody cares. Uncle Sam can’t dictate emissions law outside U.S.

China, India, etc are the worst and they will continue business as usual. If U.S. could negate oil based and coal use in India, they would be responsible for millions of life right after. So is ok for them to produce the highest level of emissions because they are poor but U.S. that is very clean so far is not?


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And that is a problem with the politics of climate change. For example, a nickel smelter in Northern Manitoba shut down 3 years ago as it was having difficulty meeting emissions standards in Canada. Now that Nickel concentrate goes for a train ride to the pacific coast-burning diesel the whole way, gets dumped onto a barge-burning bunker fuel the whole way, and smelted in Asia at a smelter that produces a higher rate of emissions as the one that no longer met Canadian Standards. To be more green, we have polluted more overall and lost those jobs at the smelter-but we can give ourselves a better score for carbon offset when the accounting is done.

 

[Aerofinz]

But you can't remove an operating one from any vehicle by the letter of the law...

Thanks for the explanation! I now get your point, it's the act of actually removing a working but possibly very dated part that is forbidden, even if it would reduce emissions and/or improve efficiency. It's interesting too regarding the general lack of enforcing it (to this point in time), in 2 States I have resided, visually looking for a cat/emissions equipment and smog testing is precluded from older vehicles. So the States then have taken a more realistic approach, but I assume c/b overridden by the EPA? I know this has been debated for years. We can only hope Biden has straight pipes on his Vette and won't go there.

 

[tjm73]

What bothers me about this deal is that if I get a job in Abudabi and take my Shelby there and get it all out, nobody cares. Uncle Sam can’t dictate emissions law outside U.S.

China, India, etc are the worst and they will continue business as usual. If U.S. could negate oil based and coal use in India, they would be responsible for millions of life right after. So is ok for them to produce the highest level of emissions because they are poor but U.S. that is very clean so far is not?

What other countries do or don't do, allow or don't allow is immaterial to what we have to deal with for laws. The EPA needs an overhaul. They pray at the alter of zero emissions without regard for the reality of their actions beyond the simplest of their goals. They should focus on things being clean. I agree with that. But they shouldn't be so rigid. They can meet their goals and help promote a healthy aftermarket industry. They don't do that know.