WE SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT NOTHING BUT THE RPM ACT!!!!!

[86GT351]

this has been something going on for years, it's not about who's in the White House.

keep this thread on topic of the Act and voice your concerns, let's not make this a D vs R debate

Exactly. I am really getting fed up with the D vs R crowd. For those of us that know because we work in the industry, this has been brewing for at least 10 years. California is the forefront of the EPA restrictions. We know that. As for tuning, it really started heavily with the Diesel guys with the Eliminating systems for there rides. The Diesel market for years has always supposedly been "Emission Friendly" I call BS. When you eliminate systems and then tune and go out and "Roll Coal", what do you really think is happening to the Emissions?

It sucks because it is going to be a hard uphill fight to overcome this. If "The Alphabet Companies" involved start levying the fines they are discussing, it will destroy the market.

 

[Juice]

Sounds like you are okay with them doing away with the Hot Rod Power Tour and all events like it. Street Car Takeover, nah dont want that. Im not okay being told what to do with my own property, this is why i live surrounded by land and no HOA. I also do not live in the city limits of any city around me. Yes its nice.

Clearly you missed my point.
I was not stating my opinion.
TJM's post sums it up, tampering with smog equipment is illegal.
And you can do whatever you want to your car on your property. Noone is regulating anything there (yet). Once you leave your property, its a different story.

 

[86GT351]

The problem is that the EPA is very rigid and will see both as an alteration and you will be removing a functioning part of the emissions system, even if you are replacing it with a superior part.

Maybe the solution is fuck-off huge engine covers (mercedes benz style) held on with tamper proof hardware to make it inconvenient for inspectors to poke around.

This is your answer right here. When you are fighting the EPA there is no Black and White. It is only what they see.

I go through it at the dealer. When a car comes in with a known issue of any type and there is an aftermarket company that makes a fix you have to ask your self why.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

This is your answer right here. When you are fighting the EPA there is no Black and White. It is only what they see.

If that's really the case, then I see the EPA as a bunch of idiotic smog Nazis who have absolutely no fucking clue what emissions reductions are really all about.
So you could make modifications to your vehicle that improve engine efficiency and REDUCE emissions but they'd still be illegal. How dumb is that?
If your car's emissions test results are within defined limits and are comparable to those expected from a stock vehicle, it should damn well pass! If you install air/oil separators and the crankcase gases are still vented into the intake system as they are from the factory, it should still pass.
The problem with the EPA is that it's completely lost touch with the reason for its existence.

 

[tjm73]

If that's really the case, then I see the EPA as a bunch of idiotic smog Nazis who have absolutely no fucking clue what emissions reductions are really all about.
So you could make modifications to your vehicle that improve engine efficiency and REDUCE emissions but they'd still be illegal. How dumb is that?
If your car's emissions test results are within defined limits and are comparable to those expected from a stock vehicle, it should damn well pass! If you install air/oil separators and the crankcase gases are still vented into the intake system as they are from the factory, it should still pass.
The problem with the EPA is that it's completely lost touch with the reason for its existence.

Correct. The EPA is an un-elected and therefor largely unaccountable body of Government that is making laws the People have to abide by. The only way to correct the path they are on is to rein them in. And only Congress can do that. And before anyone points blame at Democrats let's take a moment and remember the party that ushered the EPA into existence and the President that signed off on it. It was Republicans and Nixon. So this is not a R or D problem. It's a bad government problem.

 

[Juice]

If that's really the case, then I see the EPA as a bunch of idiotic smog Nazis who have absolutely no fucking clue what emissions reductions are really all about.
So you could make modifications to your vehicle that improve engine efficiency and REDUCE emissions but they'd still be illegal. How dumb is that?
If your car's emissions test results are within defined limits and are comparable to those expected from a stock vehicle, it should damn well pass! If you install air/oil separators and the crankcase gases are still vented into the intake system as they are from the factory, it should still pass.
The problem with the EPA is that it's completely lost touch with the reason for its existence.

Look at it from the EPA's point of view and enforcability of the rules. CARB approved parts are legal.
Tailpipe emissions are not checked anymore. It is a scan of the obd 2 and see if the pcm is reporting issues or not.
And actual emissions are only affected under WOT conditions, aka "open loop". And since the copperhead pcm, even WOT is closed loop. Even tuning is ok w/SCT as long as you dont turn off any OBD shit, and monitors pass.
What else could one possibly want? You can have 1000 whp and still be emission compliant.
Oh, there is the "must delete emission stuff, its robbing me of .6 hp. lmao

 

[Shaffe]

That'd be fine if the EPA hadn't also said it's illegal to remove ANY functioning emissions control device/system or cause it to not function. After a certain time period they shouldn't even really care anymore as the number of "gross polluting" vehicles would be statistically insignificant and the amount of time they are actually used would be minimal at best.

The EPA's goals are not the problem. It's the method to get there that is the problem. The EPA is an un-elected governing body creating and enforcing law that Congress abdicated to them. The EPA should be power checked and put back in it's place.

This this this this

Brain fart on my part.
So the real issue is that owners want to keep driving on the street in their "race" car. And get it smogged with shit deleted.

To further elaborate on my point, why I didnt consider the RPM act applicable.
A street car has registration, and is driven on the street.
A race car has no registration, is towed to competition events. This is the group that would suffer the most not being able to modify a street car for racing.

As for modding your street car, it can be done and stay within the law And need to use parts that have been certified emission compliant. I dont care if it is raced, it is not a race car per the rules.

That's where you are wrong. Pretty much any modern car requires a tune with a mod even as simple as a CAI now. Or even if people just want a little more pep/throttle response/ adjusted shift points. Those are all done with a tune/tuning device. The crackdown the EPA is trying to do, lumps those tuning devices into a emissions defeat device.

So even if you just add a CAI and need a tune to correct for the new airflow, under the EPA current crack down that would be illegal

 

[tjm73]

That's where you are wrong. Pretty much any modern car requires a tune with a mod even as simple as a CAI now. Or even if people just want a little more pep/throttle response/ adjusted shift points. Those are all done with a tune/tuning device. The crackdown the EPA is trying to do, lumps those tuning devices into a emissions defeat device.

So even if you just add a CAI and need a tune to correct for the new airflow, under the EPA current crack down that would be illegal

The intake tube from the air filter to the throttle body on 2005 Mustangs had an emissions control function. It's sole function was to stop "harmful emissions" from escaping through the throttle body upon shut down. Crazy but true. Removing it for a CAI removed an emissions control device. I don't know of Ford is still using that trick on the newer cars.

But I can say that all of this has me thinking I ought to just sell my Foxbody and buy a 2015-2018 Mustang GT and either put a Kenne Bell on it (EO#) or put the FRPP Stage 3 Power Pack (basically the Bullet parts and calibration and also EO#) plus a axle back and be done with all of it.

 

[Juice]

This this this this





That's where you are wrong. Pretty much any modern car requires a tune with a mod even as simple as a CAI now. Or even if people just want a little more pep/throttle response/ adjusted shift points. Those are all done with a tune/tuning device. The crackdown the EPA is trying to do, lumps those tuning devices into a emissions defeat device.

So even if you just add a CAI and need a tune to correct for the new airflow, under the EPA current crack down that would be illegal

FYI, there is very little if any gains to be had from minor bolt ons and tuning anymore. Yes, the copperhead and later pcms are that good. You may thinkIm wrong, but you should re-read whati said. Tuning is not illegal. Disabeling shit IS.

 

[Shaffe]

FYI, there is very little if any gains to be had from minor bolt ons and tuning anymore. Yes, the copperhead and later pcms are that good. You may thinkIm wrong, but you should re-read whati said. Tuning is not illegal. Disabeling shit IS.

I reread what you said. From what I understand the EPA is lumping tuning devices into what they consider an emission defeat device. Which makes it illegal in their eyes.

The way I read it and from what I gathered from Lund's video is the EPA pretty much is lumping any hand held tuner/tuning device as a defeat device which would make it illegal

I can't remember where I read it or saw it I will try to find it but I also believe that because there is no grey area with the EPA altering the factory tune is messing with emissions in their eyes...

 

[Juice]

SCT tuning is allowed. You take a course, and sign (virtually) that you will not use the device to disable devices/tests.

 

[Shaffe]

SCT tuning is allowed. You take a course, and sign (virtually) that you will not use the device to disable devices/tests.

Interesting. The way I have seen it/read it is the EPA is considering those devices as defeat devices and wants to make them illegal. Also that adjusting the factory tune counts as tampering with emissions

 

[Pentalab]

What's really silly is they don't even measure emissions at the tail pipe anymore. They just plug into the OBD port, and it's all functioning....or not. Meanwhile LT's and hi-flow cats are somehow a big 'no-no'.

I can see perhaps the EPA bitching about NO cats on a street car with license plates. But a car with LT's and hi-flow cats imo, is ample for emission's. And the number of cars on the road with LT's and high flow cats is beyond miniscule VS the total number of vehicles on the road. With the advent of more 100% EV's on the road each year, it makes no sense to put any effort into enforcement of joe hot rodder. In the summer of 2017, we had 400 forest fires on a friday night here in BC, and 602 forest fires 24 hrs later on saturday night. I go out onto my back deck at 10 pm, and started coughing and choking, and eyes watering in < 10 secs..... from forest fires 300+ miles to the NE of me, go figure. And no, forest fires are not factored or included in the total carbon foot print of the country. Reason is.... forest fires are ...'natural occurrences'..... and not....'man made'.

And some idiot is worried about emission's ? Gimme a break. Meanwhile, Mt Etna blows it's top.... negating any attempts at ..'reduced carbon foot print' within a 500 mile radius.

 

[Shaffe]

What's really silly is they don't even measure emissions at the tail pipe anymore. They just plug into the OBD port, and it's all functioning....or not. Meanwhile LT's and hi-flow cats are somehow a big 'no-no'.

I can see perhaps the EPA bitching about NO cats on a street car with license plates. But a car with LT's and hi-flow cats imo, is ample for emission's. And the number of cars on the road with LT's and high flow cats is beyond miniscule VS the total number of vehicles on the road. With the advent of more 100% EV's on the road each year, it makes no sense to put any effort into enforcement of joe hot rodder. In the summer of 2017, we had 400 forest fires on a friday night here in BC, and 602 forest fires 24 hrs later on saturday night. I go out onto my back deck at 10 pm, and started coughing and choking, and eyes watering in < 10 secs..... from forest fires 300+ miles to the NE of me, go figure. And no, forest fires are not factored or included in the total carbon foot print of the country. Reason is.... forest fires are ...'natural occurrences'..... and not....'man made'.

And some idiot is worried about emission's ? Gimme a break. Meanwhile, Mt Etna blows it's top.... negating any attempts at ..'reduced carbon foot print' within a 500 mile radius.

Or that a car with long tubes, no cats and running E85 passes the sniffer test as Jewc said but thats also a no no lol

 

[Juice]

Or that a car with long tubes, no cats and running E85 passes the sniffer test as Jewc said but thats also a no no lol

All it needs is cats and it would be legal.
The issue is not that it passes, it is the removal of cats and defeating the catalyst tests. If there is one thing the EPA is clear on, its that. These same rules were in effect in the 90s, when I had my emission license.

 

[tjm73]

All it needs is cats and it would be legal.
The issue is not that it passes, it is the removal of cats and defeating the catalyst tests. If there is one thing the EPA is clear on, its that. These same rules were in effect in the 90s, when I had my emission license.

Pretty sure the rules have been in effect since the mid-70's. But yeah. What he ^^ said.

The RPM Act is good for the SEMA target audience. That audience is in their name... Specialty Equipment Manufactures Association. They fight for the companies that make the parts we sometimes use to break the law. What we really need is a Automotive Owners Association to lobby for laws that are pro automotive owner.

 

[Juice]

I also like the tailpipe sniffer, but there are few and far anymore. All that old smog testing shit is broke and shops do t fix them for that one customer a year inspection im royally fucked with my van if I go over 5000 miles 2008 van and due to gvw, it needs a 2 speed idle sniff tests.

 

[RED09GT]

Over a year old but the same battle:
https://www.thedrive.com/news/31848/epa-declares-war-against-makers-of-emissions-defeat-devices

 

[tjm73]

We can thank the coal rolling assholes for the extra attention.

 

[OX1]

I'm not even sure how this RPM act applies here. We are not turning our street cars into race cars with modding.

The RPM act will at least allow companies to sell products that may not be CARB approved. Otherwise, EVERYTHING that is not now CARB approved, like 99.9% of the products we buy (for engine mods), can be squashed by the EPA if they so choose (and can show people are using them for other than pure race cars, which isn't hard).

I've said for literally decades that if the EPA would establish reasonable emissions limits for a given engine regardless of the vehicle it's installed in, the aftermarket would embrace it fully. If the tail pipe emissions of an engine meet or exceed those of when it was in the original chassis, shouldn't that be ok? If I put a 480 hp 5.0 DOHC that meets or exceeds emission limits in my 2013 Focus daily driver, the EPA shouldn't give a shit. If I put a 1990 5.0 into a 1999 Ranger and it runs as clean or cleaner than the 1990 was supposed to run, that's a win. EVAP emissions? Establish limits and a quick inexpensive way to certify the effectiveness and let the aftermarket figure out an acceptable way to meet them. Allow people to meet their goals while being clean and the vast, vast majority of us will do just that.

The EPA goals would be meet and the aftermarket would explode.

Taking this a whole lot further. Give each person an total emission limit. If I want to keep my house @ 50 in the winter and run my cars catless (as an example), so be it. I realize it's stupid and unenforceable, but why are there so many other ways people are allowed to massively waste energy (and create supposed bad things for the envirn), but they don't go after the others (IE, why does anyone with a wife and 2 kids need a 4600 sq-ft house, EVER???).