Fan ... when does he kick in ?

brasil

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Hi guys..
I have a question about my fan ( radiator )... when I start the engine..the fan is off (of course ) when I turn on the A/C the fan kicks in.. also normal. BUT when I start the engine.. and the A/C is off, the fan kicks in after a short trip ..i.e. 3-4 miles. and stays on. Until I turn the engine off. Is this normal ? My former Mustang 4.6 didn´t do this.
So I checked the Engine Temp with a Laser Thermometer... 190 +/- at the water neck ( thermostat ) water temp gauge stays in the middle... no warning lights or sound.
 

JC SSP

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From a quick Google search:

The stock fan settings for the S197 generation (2005-2014) 4.6L are generally a low-speed fan turn-on at 216°F and a high-speed fan turn-on at 228°F, with the low-speed fan turning off at 208°F and the high-speed fan turning off at 224°F.
 

StockishS197

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Probably an aftermarket tune and/or SCT device user settings commanding the high speed fan on at 160 degrees to have to run all the time.

Most of us keep the stock fan settings (or maybe slightly lower temp settings) to prevent the high speed fan from running all the time due to the melting relay issue with these cars.
 

brasil

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the fan starts to run in the 190 deg range. so I will try to check the settings. I bought a Forscan Licence..the "ELM... and a LAN wire to connect my router @ home with my Laptop.

So my feeling was right, when I didn´t trust the" kickin in temps " of the fan...

Fuel consumption is also a bit higher - what makes sence, because the engine is running too cool.
 

brasil

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forgot to say... the fan that kicks in..is the lowspeed fan ( I think ) because the fan is not sooooo loud , but audible.
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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From a quick Google search:

The stock fan settings for the S197 generation (2005-2014) 4.6L are generally a low-speed fan turn-on at 216°F and a high-speed fan turn-on at 228°F, with the low-speed fan turning off at 208°F and the high-speed fan turning off at 224°F.

Correct

Hi guys..
I have a question about my fan ( radiator )... when I start the engine..the fan is off (of course ) when I turn on the A/C the fan kicks in.. also normal. BUT when I start the engine.. and the A/C is off, the fan kicks in after a short trip ..i.e. 3-4 miles. and stays on. Until I turn the engine off. Is this normal ? My former Mustang 4.6 didn´t do this.
So I checked the Engine Temp with a Laser Thermometer... 190 +/- at the water neck ( thermostat ) water temp gauge stays in the middle... no warning lights or sound.

Your ECU almost certainly has an aftermarket tune where the low speed fan on temperature has been lowered. The stock thermostat is rated to open at 192*F (89*C) so there'll be no harm done to the engine if it runs near 192*F, and fuel consumption should be unchanged.
Performance ECU tuners tend to lower the low speed fan on temperature to prevent the engine from running hotter. Otherwise the ECU reduces ignition timing advance and the engine produces less torque, degrading performance.
A problem arises when the low speed fan on temperature has been reset below the 192*F thermostat opening temperature because then not only does the engine run cooler than it should, but the fan will also stay on all the time. Brenspeed recommends a 170*F thermostat on supercharged 3V engines and lowers the fan temperature settings to keep the engine running cooler in order to maximise ignition timing advance (and performance) while minimising the risk of engine-damaging detonation.
 

brasil

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... my 2010 is as far as I can see...bone stock. But I don´t know, what the former owners (2 all together ) made when they owned the car.
Tomorrow I will drive to a good freind of mine, who knows a lot abot Forscan..Mustangs and so on.

Perhaps ( I hope instantly ) he can find out, if the car has a tune or something like this .

@ Dino Dino Bambino. is there a way / possibility to "cancel a tune " ?? Or do I need a complete reflash of the PCM ??


I will try to alter the temperatures to the numbers that JC SSP posted before
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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@ Dino Dino Bambino. is there a way / possibility to "cancel a tune " ?? Or do I need a complete reflash of the PCM ??

You'd need to go to the Ford stealership to have the ECU reflashed back to stock. If you'd been lucky enough to buy the car with a handheld tuner married to it with the original stock tune saved, you might have been able to reflash it yourself.
 

JC SSP

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I had a tech come by the house when my computer took a dump several years ago. I picked up a used one at a local junk yard with my same ECM code. Tech then reprogrammed my ECU and both keys. Car runs great!
 

brasil

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Yesterday we checked all the Modules.. from PCM ..to ACM..
only some default codes concerning the "rear turn signals " - because of the stupid law in "good old germany ". The rest was good to go. No TCs.

About the fan now.... the fan ( low speed ) starts to run at 194 deg F .. this is the same temperature
when the thermostat is fully open.

I / we think that one of the former owners used a tune.. to "fix " the engine coolant temp ( ECT ) with the 195 deg F range. so the the does not suffer from heat peaks...

I ordered a fan wiring from "wireeverything" last week..and installed it yesterday also. ( works perfect ..installation was a breeze ), and this weekend I will install the GT 500 fan that I bought some days ago. This will not "resolve " the fan issue - if there is a real problem with the even temperature / constant running low speed fan . But a big fan is always a nice to have.
 

brasil

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...forgot to write. When "we " use the A/C ... the lowspeed fan is also running all the time , even when engine temp is low. So perhaps I make myself a little nervous - for nothing ??
 

Juice

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Once the car is moving ~20 mph, no fan is needed. Moving provides airflow needed to cool. Stopped and slow moving traffic, you need a fan for moving cooling air through the radiator. Driving around town the low speed v6 fan has no issues keeping mine under 200*. Open tracking does kick the high speed fan on, and coolant is up near 220*.
I did lower high speed fan on temp to 205 from 212.
Cliff notes: low speed fan runs a lot, needs to. High speed should only run rarely.
 

brasil

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..Finished the rear end "refresh" . So now I am back on the "front end " of my Pony, where the coolant fan still running after the coolant temp is surpassing the 191 deg F .

I installed the GT KR Fan unit..the wiring upgrade from wireeverything ( great stuff btw. )
Checked the engine temp... 190 deg F . at the thermostat neck.. so everything looks good..... but the coolant fan does not stop until I turn off the engine... And I think ..that the fan is running on the high mode. But I am not 100% sure... so perhaps someone can give me an advise how to identify the low /high fan modus..
I was thinking about pulling the low fan relay - because the fan kicks in at 190 deg F.. so IF the low fan is the one that kicks in in a correct way, at 190 deg F ..nothing will happen - until the coolant temp reaches 200 -205 deg F.. when the high fan will chime in...

is it also possible, that the cylinder head temp. sensor has a default ? As far as I know, the 4.6 L engine has only a cyl head temp. sensor , who informs the PCM about the engine / coolant temperature .. perhaps the signal is not correct ??

Important to say, that I don´t have default codes.. ( only the "normal brake light codes, because the car was "altered for the German Laws )
 

Juice

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..Finished the rear end "refresh" . So now I am back on the "front end " of my Pony, where the coolant fan still running after the coolant temp is surpassing the 191 deg F .

I installed the GT KR Fan unit..the wiring upgrade from wireeverything ( great stuff btw. )
Checked the engine temp... 190 deg F . at the thermostat neck.. so everything looks good..... but the coolant fan does not stop until I turn off the engine... And I think ..that the fan is running on the high mode. But I am not 100% sure... so perhaps someone can give me an advise how to identify the low /high fan modus..
I was thinking about pulling the low fan relay - because the fan kicks in at 190 deg F.. so IF the low fan is the one that kicks in in a correct way, at 190 deg F ..nothing will happen - until the coolant temp reaches 200 -205 deg F.. when the high fan will chime in...

is it also possible, that the cylinder head temp. sensor has a default ? As far as I know, the 4.6 L engine has only a cyl head temp. sensor , who informs the PCM about the engine / coolant temperature .. perhaps the signal is not correct ??

Important to say, that I don´t have default codes.. ( only the "normal brake light codes, because the car was "altered for the German Laws )
Sounds like you have a tune, and fan settings were changed.
Low speed should kick on @205*.
High speed @212*.
Thats where Ford put it on the coyote, and I think those are the oe settings on most if not all platforms.
 
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..Finished the rear end "refresh" . So now I am back on the "front end " of my Pony, where the coolant fan still running after the coolant temp is surpassing the 191 deg F .

I installed the GT KR Fan unit..the wiring upgrade from wireeverything ( great stuff btw. )
Checked the engine temp... 190 deg F . at the thermostat neck.. so everything looks good..... but the coolant fan does not stop until I turn off the engine... And I think ..that the fan is running on the high mode. But I am not 100% sure... so perhaps someone can give me an advise how to identify the low /high fan modus..
I was thinking about pulling the low fan relay - because the fan kicks in at 190 deg F.. so IF the low fan is the one that kicks in in a correct way, at 190 deg F ..nothing will happen - until the coolant temp reaches 200 -205 deg F.. when the high fan will chime in...

is it also possible, that the cylinder head temp. sensor has a default ? As far as I know, the 4.6 L engine has only a cyl head temp. sensor , who informs the PCM about the engine / coolant temperature .. perhaps the signal is not correct ??

Important to say, that I don´t have default codes.. ( only the "normal brake light codes, because the car was "altered for the German Laws )
You could pull the low speed relay but remember you A/C will not work right. It needs the fan on to cool the condenser when you are not moving. With the low speed fan out it will cycle the high speed fan when the pressure gets too high in the A/C system.
 

brasil

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thank you guys for your input. @ Juice. hope that I don´t have a tune... because here in Germany it is difficult to find a Ford Dealer who attends US Ford Vehicles...
 

brasil

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so today I made the following steps. Started the engine with A/C and Heater. OFF.. No fan .. so far so good. Cold engine.. no fan..until the Coolant Temp reached 190.40 Deg F ( I used a AUTO MAXI PRO as a scanner ) so when the coolant was at 190.40 deg F the LOW speed fan kicked in .. shortly after the low speed fan kicked in , I took out the Low speed relay. And of course the fan stopped working. engine idled. until the coolant temperature went up to 197.20 Deg F .. when the highspeed fan started to work...

I cross changed the relay..from rear defroster to low speed.. from high speed to wiper relay ( relays are all the same btw ) but nothing changed.

The Low speed fan starts to run at 190.4 deg F. and the high speed fan starts at 197,20 deg...

all numbers with A/C and Heater. turned OFF

What do you guys think.... is a TUNE the "Bad Boy " ???

I also made a test drive with the Autel scanner connected.. the temperature stays between 190.4 and 196 deg F..the higher number occurs if I drive "hard " i.e heavy foot on the accelerator . This should be normal, because more power..creates more heat.
 

GlassTop09

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so today I made the following steps. Started the engine with A/C and Heater. OFF.. No fan .. so far so good. Cold engine.. no fan..until the Coolant Temp reached 190.40 Deg F ( I used a AUTO MAXI PRO as a scanner ) so when the coolant was at 190.40 deg F the LOW speed fan kicked in .. shortly after the low speed fan kicked in , I took out the Low speed relay. And of course the fan stopped working. engine idled. until the coolant temperature went up to 197.20 Deg F .. when the highspeed fan started to work...

I cross changed the relay..from rear defroster to low speed.. from high speed to wiper relay ( relays are all the same btw ) but nothing changed.

The Low speed fan starts to run at 190.4 deg F. and the high speed fan starts at 197,20 deg...

all numbers with A/C and Heater. turned OFF

What do you guys think.... is a TUNE the "Bad Boy " ???

I also made a test drive with the Autel scanner connected.. the temperature stays between 190.4 and 196 deg F..the higher number occurs if I drive "hard " i.e heavy foot on the accelerator . This should be normal, because more power..creates more heat.
Hi brasil,

Been following this thread..........provided below are 2 pictures.......1 of the Spanish Oak ECU OEM 05-10 MY GT & 07-10 MY GT500 calibration cooling fan profile & 1 of the popular aftermarket tuner used Spanish Oak ECU 05-10 MY calibration cooling fan profile.

A summary of how the Spanish Oak ECU OS's are programmed to use these settings:
With HVAC off:
The ECU will follow the settings shown for Low Speed Fan enable, Low Speed Fan disable.....until the vehicle MPH speed read off the VSS sensor exceeds the VSS disable setting.......the fan is turned off thus will be freewheeling until the MPH speed goes below the VSS enable setting then the fan will be returned to the Low Speed Fan enable, disable settings.
With HVAC on:
The ECU will turn fan on at Low Speed continuously until the MPH settings override as previously described & return back to continuously on.

Hi Speed Fan:
The ECU will only go here if the inferred ECT from the CHT temp (not the CHT temp.......) exceeds the HI Fan enable settings & will only turn off when the ECT drops below the Hi Fan disable setting. This setting will override ALL Low Speed Fan settings thus the fan will run at Hi Speed regardless of MPH speeds & will not turn off.............this is what is burning up the fan wiring in BEC, fan connectors & relays when this is kept active for excessive amounts of time..........because it was never intended to be ran for extended time, in reality it is never intended to be run at all as if all is in good working order in the entire cooling system & these settings are left intact, the Hi Speed Fan settings should never be reached.

Hi Load, Hi Speed Fan:
These settings are exactly what the title means.......these will come into play if the engine enters low RPM, hi engine load criteria (think low RPM towing or low RPM lugging up a steep hill\incline for examples..........)......for this to become active, ALL of the settings have to be satisfied at the same time then will shut down & revert back to the reg Low Speed Fan settings when just 1 of the settings here drops back below\above its trigger setting.

The testing method you just did is showing you which fan cooling profile is being used in your car's ECU..............it isn't the OEM stock cooling fan profile thus someone else has been in there outside of Ford.

I put this here w\ the pictures below so you will know going forward exactly what\how this Ford Spanish Oak ECU was programmed from the factory to operate vs the popular cooling fan profile used by the majority of aftermarket\DIY tuners.

Hope this helps.

Ford Spanish Oak ECU 05-10 MY GT 07-10 MY GT500 OEM Calibration Cooling Fan Speed Settings (1).JPG

Popular Aftermarket Tuned Ford Spanish Oak ECU 05-10 MY Calibration Cooling Fan Speed Settings...JPG
 

brasil

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Hi Glass Top 09

the numbers in the second picture..are exactly the numbers I have here with my 2010 GT..
So someone used a aftermarket Tune-

Today I tried to reach the 3 former owners of my car, hoping that one of them would give me some info about the tune . Sadly the first owner of the car died in the last years..so I had to call the second owner- he had the car only a few months . He will give me some information tomorrow... But I think that the first owner- the man who already died - used a tune. Because he owned a Software company.. thus makes sense that he loved to play with "tunes ".

Called a Ford Dealer also... asked for a "reflash " of the ECM /PCM... But they denied. They said that the car is too old...and that they do not have the right stuff.... A.S:O. So lets forget about them ...

At the end of the day, I have two questions .. How can I identify the tune.. Does the tune
hurt the car / engine...


BTW. you were speaking / writing about a "Ford Spanish ECU "... my Mustang is a Import from Mexico.. all the windows are marked with the VIN and the word Mexico. So perhaps the car was flased in Mexico, before the car was sold to the first owner ??
 

GlassTop09

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BTW. you were speaking / writing about a "Ford Spanish ECU "... my Mustang is a Import from Mexico.. all the windows are marked with the VIN and the word Mexico. So perhaps the car was flased in Mexico, before the car was sold to the first owner ??
"Spanish Oak" is the code name of these 05-10 MY Mustang's ECU (engine control unit) or PCM (power control module)............the actual name is a PowerPC EEC VI 1024k ECU... Now while some of these S197's certainly do exist in the country of Mexico, I can't say if yours was imported from Mexico or elsewhere......

At the end of the day, I have two questions .. How can I identify the tune.. Does the tune
hurt the car / engine...
Outside of using the Ford IDS\PCMTech software, the only other methods I'm aware of is thru using an aftermarket tuning software such as HPTuners or SCT (the 1st popular aftermarket tuning suite software to tune Fords.........) as these were developed to access the OEM ECU's OS's\tune calibrations\internal firmware (to an extent.......not fully........these ECU's have as many as 16,000-18,000 lines of code programmed into them...). Try to see if the PO's still have the tuner that was used to flash tunes to the car (odds most likely will be a SCT handheld device.......).

As for whether hurting the car or not..........I can't say concerning the tune calibration in general........but concerning the current cooling fan profile programmed in it laid out from your testing methods, this profile is a BIG contributing factor to the problem of burned BEC's, wiring, connectors, fan relays, fan motors & potential engine overheating as a result.....especially if run w\ the stock GT radiator & fan due to grossly inadequate cooling capacity aggravated by retaining the OEM 195*F thermostat along w\ it........thus the fan will run continuously at hi speed settings (meaning at full current draw......engine operating temps thru OEM rads\fans could regularly exceed the 198*F setting.......especially if run w\ HVAC off, HVAC on is your best setting to keep on so fan at least starts running immediately in low speed continuously until this can be reprogrammed......to try to limit the amount of time the system runs continuously in hi fan speed mode......Ford designed this system for optimum thermal engine efficiency to be around 212*F avg operating temps.....but not drop below 195*F......to meet CAFE stds for MPG & emissions but also efficient power output as well)......especially if ECU was tuned for higher performance......against ram air at speed that WILL cause the fan to struggle to turn--airflow will try to reverse fan rotation--causing the fan's electrical system to eventually overload the capacity of the wiring, connectors, relays, etc from very high electrical resistance AND reverse current flow (back flow if preferred......) generated from the DC fan motor running when it should be freewheeling w\ no power applied (thus no reverse flow generation of DC current into system due to open relays breaking continuity......).....in addition of RESTRICTING the total airflow thru the radiator (running fan is SLOWER than the same fan in free spin thus creates higher airflow restriction thru the fan shroud at hiway speeds.....) thus causing the engine to potentially overheat even faster than it would have otherwise (mostly if running the car at high speeds under high loads but depending on conditions can even cause this at lower engine RPM's if the engine loads are high enough.....). IMHO, this is not an IF scenario, but a WHEN scenario........the rest depends on what\how you deal w\ it.......thus kinda like playing Russian roulette.........w\ your car. This system uses 40A J-case slow burn fuses.......which in most instances will not reach their blow point before the wiring, connectors, relays will start to break down & start burning, melting stuff.............so keep a close eye on all this until rectified.

This particular cooling fan settings profile, IMHO, was intended to be used in conjunction w\ the usage of the LARGEST CAPACITY radiator\cooling fan that could be fitted AND a 160*F-170*F thermostat to go w\ it..............package deal strictly for competition road course racing purposes (FYI......this cooling fan profile looks to be the "defacto" profile for the '08 Ford factory FR500S S197 race car...........I have in hand 3 separate copies of this FR500S race car's tune calibration from 3 different cars\ECUs in which this exact cooling fan profile exists in all 3 of them......) that I believe somebody miscalculated could be used safely in stock modified\boosted 3V ECU's using the 05-10 S197 OEM GT stock 1-row cored radiator\fan\195*F thermostat combo w\o issue to "improve" cooling performance due to it being created by Ford & used in a Spanish Oak ECU OS w\o any thought of the REST of this race car's cooling packaging since the base car used was a stripped down production line '08 Shelby GT........most notably the radiator & fan ('08 Ford GT500......larger 2-cored rad & larger fan shroud w\ relief exhaust flaps but OEM GT500 rad looks exactly like a stock OEM GT 1-row core radiator.......in looks only.....) w\ a 160*F-170*F thermostat installed (most likely candidates to match to this profile since it gives a 18*F to 28*F cushion from when it opens to flow vs the low fan speed disable setting of 188*F thus a chance for this profile to work as programmed.....and since competitive road course racing is done at higher RPM's\engine loads\vehicle speeds for extended time periods under mostly CL part throttle conditions......not under OL PE for WOT operations (read high heat generation & heat soak here.......thus the normal racing operating temp area would be somewhere between 180*F thru 194*F.....engine was a sealed, OEM factory production line 4.6L V8 per Miller Cup Challenge race homologation rules w\ all other parts used had to be off the production line as well, thus the usage of certain GT500 OEM parts & OEM Bullitt parts......), this type of fan cooling profile usage makes the most sense--but IMHO not for any semblance of daily driving street duties on stock cooling equipped NA 3V GT's........especially using A\C or heat under HVAC (compressor operations exerting extra engine load thus heat generation.........which the race car didn't have) or when using FI (also the race car wasn't equipped with either..............).

IMHO, a popular "factory" cooling "mod" that a LOT of tuners still apply (my prior tuner at the time also used this very same "FR500S" cooling fan profile w\ my car until I saw it myself then gave him a copy of my revised cooling fan profile based off the OEM cooling fan profile to put in my car's ECU to eliminate this potential BEC, wiring, relay burning issue some 5 yrs ago now.........) but not well thought out\thought thru from an actual application standpoint in regular production line equipped GT S197's..............

I'm sure that some will most certainly disagree w\ my assessment since this profile is still getting used as is by tuners who have been doing this far longer than I.......................but still doesn't make it "right".........

Can it work............IMHO, yes when properly set up w\ the proper sized supporting components for the operating conditions it was originally conceived for..............

Hope you get all resolved to your satisfaction.........
 

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