Big Bore Boss build

[BruceH]

Your builds are frequent and always interesting. I'll definitely be looking forward to your progress. Off topic, but had you kept the DOB system, and upgraded to the '13 tvs what kind of numbers would you have expected with your higher compression motor? Would it have been manageable tractionwise?

I don't know. 585rwhp uncorrected with 8psi and the M122. I'd expect quite a bit more with a 2.3 tvs and more boost. More than likely power would be boost limited. I'd expect over 700 pretty easily.

There is only one way to find out, you should do the build, lol.

 

[v8venomgt]

I don't know. 585rwhp uncorrected with 8psi and the M122. I'd expect quite a bit more with a 2.3 tvs and more boost. More than likely power would be boost limited. I'd expect over 700 pretty easily.

There is only one way to find out, you should do the build, lol.

Ha its crossed mind to be honest after seeing your results. I bet their would be gobs of torque everywhere with a tvs. I've considered building a block mimicking years but hopefully I'm at least 2 years from that. My thp kit has served me well and i feel pretty loyal to it. I've had success with it, and it seems efficient to me. 10psi on a smal billet cartridge 61 mm turbo, some piping, cmdp, and a fuel system and this motor seems to love that combo on 93. I could only imagine a little more displacement, unshrouding the valves, and adding some compression.

 

[BruceH]

A few new logs to further confuse with questionable techniques.

These are on 92 octane and with a 65mm tb. The first is with the stock manifold and deletes, second is with the same 65mm tb and frpp intake.

Other differences are JBA shorty headers with factory cats.

The previous logs quoted in this post were with E85, 62mm tb, Mac LT headers with Pypes high flow cats and a prochamber.

I'm sticking with 41 lbs of airflow as the delta. It's important to note that the airflow measurement is dependent on the maf xfer, weather conditions, and other things so this is nothing more than a gee whiz comparison. Including all the variables I find it quite interesting that the numbers are somewhat repeatable in baseline numbers and with similar changes.

Once again 41 lbs was made at close to 6100 rpms with the stock intake manifold. It also maxed out around 43 lbs just like the previous log quoted in this post.



This is with the FRPP intake manifold. 41 lbs comes on earlier but not nearly as early as it did with E85. Max airflow is close to 47 lbs just like it was with E85.



Also of note is that the airflow in the lower rpms seems to be greater with the stock intake which is consistent with the lost power most na motors experience with the FRPP intake. IMO unless the motor is moving more than 40 lbs of air the FRPP intake is only going to result in losses. This was my experience with a smaller na 3v.

To get a better idea I should really switch back to E85 with the current setup and try to get out during similar weather conditions. The pulls are being made on the same stretch of pavement.


One last thing I notice with the FRPP intake is that load doesn't have the big drop in higher rpms. Since load is a measure of volumetric efficiency or how much air is moving through the motor these logs show that magic point of 41 lbs of air as being where the stock intake drops off and the frpp takes off.

I'm going to reiterate that these tests aren't very exact, they are ballpark figures but there are enough similarities that IMO the FRPP intake manifold is of no benefit to a motor moving less than 41 lbs of air and even then the benefits don't really manifest unless you are revving to at least 7000 rpm.

Surely there will be some discussion about this so I'm going to post it in a separate thread under chit chat.

Just did. It needs a little more dashpot but other than that not much has changed except for logged airflow.



I have a jlt mini can and it's proving to be a pain to locate with the change in geometry.

I was only able to get a partial pull in. Still, it clearly shows more airflow with the same cai and maf xfer function. I added a little more fuel via the base fuel table.

If I can rely on the log results as an indication of differences in airflow then I think the tb and intake are really shining. Notice it hit 41 lbs of airflow at 5000 rpm vs 6100 with the stock equipment. This pull also resulted in a max of 46 lbs but the pull only went to 6300 vs over 7100 on the yesterdays pull that only amounted to 43 lbs of air.

Next stop is the dyno. I'll probably try to hit a local dynojet after work sometime this week.

Todays data:



Yesterday:

 

[BruceH]

Had an issue on the morning commute. It went into failsafe while making a left hand turn. I turned the key off and restarted to wot. Got to the side of the road (residential area in the dark at a little before 4:30am), pulled the cai and moved the throttle body blades. They weren't stuck or binding in any way. Put it back together, fired it up, and drove to work.

I'm not sure if it has to do with this bbk 65mm tb or if it's something else. I'm thinking that this weekend I'll probably switch to a GT500 tb and sell the BBK. I don't think there is anything wrong with the BBK, it's the newer version with plastic gears. However, my piece of mind is probably going to take having a factory Ford throttle body in place. An unexpected wot isn't a good feeling and I'm pretty sure that a 60mm twin bore GT500 tb will still flow all the air my na motor can use.

Anyone have any similar experience with one of the plastic geared BBK throttle bodies? I'm thinking that maybe the failsafe mode with me giving it a whole lot of throttle to get through the intersection followed by it killing might have stuck the tb blades open enough to confuse the ecu. Does that sound plausible? Still though, why the failsafe to begin with? Something didn't add up in the ecu. Maybe the cai had come off of the tb a little bit? Hmmm.

 

[one eyed willy]

I had nothing but issues with my BBK, i was going to say something earlier but i didnt want to jynx you or be the debbie downer.......mine worked good for 3-4 weeks. then the throttle would just start sticking from red light to red light and hang up around 3000rpm...few codes and BS later i removed it. I took it all apart, down to the very last nut , screw and bolt....cleaned it perfect, installed it,adjusted it and went another few weeks before having the same issues....switched to a gt500 TB and been good since.

 

[AutoXRacer]

What the!!?? Bruce, you are running a BBK...? What the!!??

Bruce, you very well know there is nothing better than OEM.

 

[BruceH]

What the!!?? Bruce, you are running a BBK...? What the!!??

Bruce, you very well know there is nothing better than OEM.

I got it for a good price, it was pretty much what I was looking for, and they had upgraded the gears to plastic. I did hang on to a GT500 tb just in case.

It's driven just fine since the incident. I've been dding the car for the last few months because my wife and daughters are using the other 3 vehicles now that they all have jobs.

I'm pretty sure that the GT500 tb is going back on this weekend. I'll pull the electronics from the bbk and inspect the insides. It could of very well been a one time thing that's unrelated to the tb but I just don't want to take any chances. Plus the GT500 tb is a little over $100 from frpp. I'll probably pick up a new spare (you wouldn't believe how many spares and tools I carry with me) once the BBK sells. Maybe I should sell it with the electronics? I wouldn't sell it if I thought there was a repeatable problem with it, I just don't have much faith in it anymore.

Gerald, funny post. Lol. You got me.

 

[BruceH]

I swapped a GT500 tb in tonight. I did notice that some of bolts weren't even snug. IIRC I had snugged them up and was going to do a torque but can't remember doing one. The enlarged holes in the tb would allow movement and loosening to occur much easier than with the stock sized fastener holes.

It's possible that a temporary leak of unmetered air occurred and was the cause of my issues. When I pulled over and checked for binding it could of placed enough tension on the assembly to seal it back up again.

If the gears had bound it wouldn't of went into failsafe while stopped and waiting for a light. Then when restarting it was in open loop which allowed it to rev. Just a thought I'm having. At this point I've swapped the GT500 tb in and plan to keep it in.

 

[BlackWidowStang]

I had the same problem with my BBK. Switched it to a GT500 and haven't had the problem since.

 

[JeremyH]

Some info for ya. Ive had a bbk 62mm for over 5 years. It has brass gears. This happened to me quite a few times with a brenspeed and then BBR email tunes. Throttle hang up or failsafe and I would have to shut the car off and restart it. Since being dyno tuned by Mike at MAP I haven't had an issue since been over 3 years and its been flawless since. Is there some parameters in the tune that need adjusted that tuners didn't know about back then? Maybe. Imho its not a hardware issue which everyone thought back then based on my results.

 

[BruceH]

Some info for ya. Ive had a bbk 62mm for over 5 years. It has brass gears. This happened to me quite a few times with a brenspeed and then BBR email tunes. Throttle hang up or failsafe and I would have to shut the car off and restart it. Since being dyno tuned by Mike at MAP I haven't had an issue since been over 3 years and its been flawless since. Is there some parameters in the tune that need adjusted that tuners didn't know about back then? Maybe. Imho its not a hardware issue which everyone thought back then based on my results.

BBK advertises all of their throttle bodies as not needing a tune and that's just not true. Going from a 55mm to 62mm needs some tables and parameters changed to prevent going into failsafe. What happens is the ecu expects a certain amount of air for the blade angle. When it doesn't happen within 10% of predicted value it thinks there is unmetered air and goes into failsafe to prevent engine damage.

However, going from 60mm to 62mm or even 65mm isn't going to trip the percentage of error failsafe. Since mine went at idle I doubt it is tune related due to the slight difference of air volume between the prior GT500 tb and BBK at idle. I'm really leaning toward the tb loosening up and letting unmetered air in causing failsafe. A restart cleared the failsafe but the unmetered air had the same effect as opening the blade angle which is higher rpm. Since it was in open loop at this time the failsafe didn't trigger.

It's just a thought, I really have no idea with 100% certainty as to what happened.

I'd guess that your prior tuners didn't tune for the tb and that Mike added the GT500 files. That would explain your circumstance. I don't want to put words or actions into someone else's experience so it's simply my thought on the matter.

It drove just fine with the GT500 tb back on this morning. Idle was back to perfect. I had been tweaking the dashpot and isc values after adding the BBK tb. I'm pretty sure I'll keep the GT500 tb and pick up a new one for the spare parts kit in the trunk.

 

[JeremyH]

I agree on all your points Bruce. Just sharing my results. I got told left and right it was the tb itself and brass on brass gears were no good and that the tb was junk. Turned out to be completely tune related for me.

 

[BruceH]

I agree on all your points Bruce. Just sharing my results. I got told left and right it was the tb itself and brass on brass gears were no good and that the tb was junk. Turned out to be completely tune related for me.

As you know I was very concerned about the gears myself. Glad that yours works for you. I think that mine is just fine too. Now that the GT500 tb is back on there is nothing to be gained for my na motor by swapping back. A pd blower would really benefit from it imo.

I wonder what a 62mm turbo would do? Lol, jk.

 

[01yellerCobra]

I wonder what a 62mm turbo would do? Lol, jk.

Who are you trying to fool?

 

[one eyed willy]

Come to the dark side!

 

[Bobby]

We will find out what the tb will do here shortly on my car.

 

[Dark_horse]

As you know I was very concerned about the gears myself. Glad that yours works for you. I think that mine is just fine too. Now that the GT500 tb is back on there is nothing to be gained for my na motor by swapping back. A pd blower would really benefit from it imo.

I wonder what a 62mm turbo would do? Lol, jk.

come on Bruce... we've been waiting for you !!

 

[JeremyH]

As you know I was very concerned about the gears myself. Glad that yours works for you. I think that mine is just fine too. Now that the GT500 tb is back on there is nothing to be gained for my na motor by swapping back. A pd blower would really benefit from it imo.

I wonder what a 62mm turbo would do? Lol, jk.

Who are you trying to fool?

Come to the dark side!

come on Bruce... we've been waiting for you !!

Haha love it!

I would go a tad bigger for the big bore motor though.

Get it at intro pricing and then when you sell it the retail price will be higher. You can pre-arrange the second hand buyer as well after you change it up! lol

 

[Bobby]

Best idea i have heard in awile.

 

[BruceH]

Haha love it!

I would go a tad bigger for the big bore motor though.

Get it at intro pricing and then when you sell it the retail price will be higher. You can pre-arrange the second hand buyer as well after you change it up! lol

That's funny stuff right there. Who knows, maybe I'll trade some of my parts in the classifieds for turbo parts and start gathering the parts needed for a kit.

I'm really enjoying being na. I suppose that with a boost controller I could keep it na until more power was needed. Still though, there are some turbo specific things that rule it out for me.

IIRC Turbonetics makes a kit that allows for use of the stock cats? We have emissions here and I have always kept the cats. Plus, I absolutely hate being behind someone without cats on their car. 25+ years of working in aerospace has affected my sensitivity to petro chemicals including gasoline.