Camber Plate / Suspension upgrade advice needed

[Mackitraz]

First post! Working on suspension upgrades. Street driven '08 GT, trying to upgrade handling and stance of the car while replacing some worn out parts. I want to lower the car 1-1.5" with appropriate corrective parts.

Question: Trying to decide to go with a Steeda Upper Strut Mount or with Caster/Camber Plates? Both seem to allow for camber adjustment, which seems like all I need with a drop. However the caster/camber plates look like I would have to replace my crappy stock upper strut mount with at least a GT500 mount resulting in another hundred bucks on the price. Really would appreciate some help, I'm trying to do this right the first time.

My proposed shopping list:
BMR LCA Relocation Brackets
BMR Adjustable Panhard Bar
Steeda Heavy Duty Upper Strut Mount
Steeda Ultra-lite Springs

What I already have:
Koni Str.t Shocks
BMR Non-adjustable LCAs

 

[Pentalab]

https://www.steeda.com/steeda-mustang-upper-strut-mounts-555-8120.html

This is what I used on my 2010 GT. Then tweaked for max negative camber. This is the gold standard.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Steeda HD upper strut mounts here as well. With Koni yellows and 260 lb/in front springs.

Best to stay closer to 1" lowering.


Norm

 

[DieHarder]

A few questions: 1) How old are the front lower control arms? If original you might want to think about replacing them. See the GT500 LCA thread. 2) Is ride comfort an issue? If so, consider a compliant spring (like Roush) vs a more sports oriented (read stiffer) one. 3) You may not need to invest in camber/caster plates at all. Spinning the upper strut mount 180 deg can take out quite a bit of negative camber. In my case rotating them resulted in near perfect .7/.8 camber both sides.

If you want good/great handling and comfort consider this setup: Roush springs (lowers both ends about 1" and compliant ride); Bilstein B6 struts/shocks; GT500 strut mounts; GT500 front LCA's. Rear: Add the adjustable panhard bar. You can run with the LCA relocation brackets if you want but depends on the kind of driving you do. I do mainly long-distance touring/mountain so launching isn't a major concern hence I don't feel I need the extra brackets. In addition to adjustable LCA's in the rear I just use a good J&M upper control arm that articulates well and call it a day.

However, to stiffen things up front and rear I've added a host of brackets/braces that many will consider overkill but for me I feel they're necessary. Starting w/upgraded/heavy duty sway bars front and rear w/black (stiff) urethane bushings. Front strut brace; Rear strut brace that bolts to the body in three places. Frame connectors underneath that tie the front to the back and also serve as jacking rails. And a Whiteline K-member brace that ties the front LCA's to the sway bar. I'm certainly no frame expert but I can say the car feels more composed so I'll keep these mods on the car. Good luck in your modding adventure.

 

[Mackitraz]

Thanks for the replies! My GT is bone stock with the exception of the Koni Oranges I have on now, with 100k on the clock. I plan on keeping the car, so I'm not worried about putting money into it to refresh everything for the second half of it's life.

I'm similar to your driving style DieHarder in that I'm just doing a lot of road driving, no tracking. However I've never been happy with the stock suspension in that it's always felt..."floaty?" And with more body roll than I would like. I currently have Nitto NT555 tires, so that helped it feel more planted.

I guess I'm trying to get it to feel more like a driver's car/road car not a drag car, and I'd like to reduce the fender gap because that's always bothered me.

Any brands to stay away from or parts combos that don't play nice together? I've looked at Steeda, Whiteline, UMI, BMR and most of the other usuals. Trying to be realistic about what I need and not go overboard.

 

[07 Boss]

Here's a thought. When I first lowered my car I clocked the stock strut mounts 180* and this brought my camber back into spec. This may or may not be the case for you but it has worked for others. Since then I have gone with the GT 500 mounts and have them in their regular orientation. With no correction for camber I run about between -2.25* and -2.62 which I kinda like. Initial bite on turn in is a little better and I don't get any unusual tire wear.

I went BMR with everything from springs to K-member to control arms for the front. Cobra Jet springs for the rear but everything else is BMR.

 

[Pentalab]

The Roush springs are 1/2" shorter than OEM...( and 20-30% stiffer). The mating Roush front struts are exactly 1/2" shorter than OEM. ( As measured from the very bottom of the strut.... to the spring perch). The 1" front drop then consists of (a) 1/2" drop from the roush front springs..and (b) another 1/2" drop from the shorter front struts. IF Roush front springs are used with oem length front struts, like ford oem, koni street / koni yellow, then you only get a 1/2" front drop.

A .5" to 1 " front drop is ample. I would not recommend lowering the front more than 1". If instead you say opt for a front spring that's 1" to 1.5" lower than oem, but use oem length front struts, like koni orange / yellow, then you just lost 1" to 1.5" of shock travel, due to the shorter spring.

In my case, I just bought the entire roush suspension package, which lowers the rear 1.25" ( they are now advertising the rear as a 1" drop)...and a 1" front drop. HD Roush front 37mm sway bar, and I believe a 26-27mm solid rear sway bar. It comes with new rear bump stops, 4 x springs, 4 x shocks, front + rear sway bars, etc, etc.

On my 2010, my front camber was outa whack. One side was -.4 deg. The other side was -.7 deg. Let's at least make em the same. Got pissed off, and bought the HD steeda adjustable front strut mounts..that allow for camber adjustment. I now have both of em set the same...and both are tweaked for max neg camber. That makes a big difference on turn in, the handling is vastly improved.

Between the stiffer front and rear roush springs, stiff shocks front + rear, and roush hd front + rear sway bars, Steeda HD strut mounts, etc, the handling improvement is vastly improved vs bone stock oem....and plenty good enough for my street car applications. The limitation now is the oem seat belts. I'm currently using Nitto NT-555's on the front (285-40-18) on 18 x 10" wide rims and a small 3mm spacer. Rears are MPSS in a 305-35-19...on 19 x 10" wide rims.

 

[DieHarder]

The Roush springs are 1/2" shorter than OEM...( and 20-30% stiffer). The mating Roush front struts are exactly 1/2" shorter than OEM. ( As measured from the very bottom of the strut.... to the spring perch). The 1" front drop then consists of (a) 1/2" drop from the roush front springs..and (b) another 1/2" drop from the shorter front struts. IF Roush front springs are used with oem length front struts, like ford oem, koni street / koni yellow, then you only get a 1/2" front drop.

A .5" to 1 " front drop is ample. I would not recommend lowering the front more than 1". If instead you say opt for a front spring that's 1" to 1.5" lower than oem, but use oem length front struts, like koni orange / yellow, then you just lost 1" to 1.5" of shock travel, due to the shorter spring.

In my case, I just bought the entire roush suspension package, which lowers the rear 1.25" ( they are now advertising the rear as a 1" drop)...and a 1" front drop. HD Roush front 37mm sway bar, and I believe a 26-27mm solid rear sway bar. It comes with new rear bump stops, 4 x springs, 4 x shocks, front + rear sway bars, etc, etc.

On my 2010, my front camber was outa whack. One side was -.4 deg. The other side was -.7 deg. Let's at least make em the same. Got pissed off, and bought the HD steeda adjustable front strut mounts..that allow for camber adjustment. I now have both of em set the same...and both are tweaked for max neg camber. That makes a big difference on turn in, the handling is vastly improved.

Between the stiffer front and rear roush springs, stiff shocks front + rear, and roush hd front + rear sway bars, Steeda HD strut mounts, etc, the handling improvement is vastly improved vs bone stock oem....and plenty good enough for my street car applications. The limitation now is the oem seat belts. I'm currently using Nitto NT-555's on the front (285-40-18) on 18 x 10" wide rims and a small 3mm spacer. Rears are MPSS in a 305-35-19...on 19 x 10" wide rims.

Good setup; cornering must be awesome... I'm running 255's on 9" stock Brembo OEM wheels which clear my 4-pot Brembo brakes. As I don't do any tracking so I didn't feel larger wheels were needed. Regarding camber -.75/+ - .75 are the stock measurements so max neg would be -1.5. Mine are at -.7 & -.8 which are fine for me. It actually feels pretty good at these settings. I am also using Roush springs which lower the car yet still provide a good ride. I tried FRPP "P" springs but the ride just felt too stiff. Would really be good however for someone who tracks their car.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm similar to your driving style DieHarder in that I'm just doing a lot of road driving, no tracking. However I've never been happy with the stock suspension in that it's always felt..."floaty?" And with more body roll than I would like.

"Floaty" is mostly a shocks/struts matter. As in not enough rebound damping. Insufficient damping may also allow more roll to happen sooner, which might feel like more roll overall even if the damping isn't so poor that the car "overshoots" in roll and bounces back a little.

It's unrealistic to chase significantly less roll in a street-driven-only car. A little more bar stiffness than OE (do not go crazy chasing big stiffness numbers or bar diameters here) combined with better shocks & struts is really all it takes.


Norm

 

[DieHarder]

Thanks for the replies! My GT is bone stock with the exception of the Koni Oranges I have on now, with 100k on the clock. I plan on keeping the car, so I'm not worried about putting money into it to refresh everything for the second half of it's life.

I'm similar to your driving style DieHarder in that I'm just doing a lot of road driving, no tracking. However I've never been happy with the stock suspension in that it's always felt..."floaty?" And with more body roll than I would like. I currently have Nitto NT555 tires, so that helped it feel more planted.

I guess I'm trying to get it to feel more like a driver's car/road car not a drag car, and I'd like to reduce the fender gap because that's always bothered me.

Any brands to stay away from or parts combos that don't play nice together? I've looked at Steeda, Whiteline, UMI, BMR and most of the other usuals. Trying to be realistic about what I need and not go overboard.

For the next upgrade I recommend the Roush/Bilstein combo (or just the Roush springs since you already have Koni). Not too expensive yet night/day handling compared to stock. I'd look at front/rear sway bars next. Lots of choices out there. For the rear check out J&M upper & lower control arms. They do a better job of articulating IMO due to the ball design. I've had them on my car for the last three years with no complaints. Then upgrade other parts over time using quality pieces as you can afford it.

 

[Mackitraz]

It's unrealistic to chase significantly less roll in a street-driven-only car. A little more bar stiffness than OE (do not go crazy chasing big stiffness numbers or bar diameters here) combined with better shocks & struts is really all it takes.

Norm

Thanks for that advice! I read a thread you were posting in about X braces and chassis stiffness (pat me on the back, I can use the search function LOL), and I see what you're saying. I'm trying to be realistic about my expectations, I'd just like better than stock handling. I realize the way I worded my earlier post sounded like the Koni's had 100k on them but they're pretty new. I got the LCA's because my stock LCA bushings are trashed (used to live on a rough road). Sam Strano told me that lowering would solve most street wheelhop problems so not to worry about relocation brackets. I was thinking about using Steeda Upper Strut mounts because it seemed like I was looking at replacement strut mounts in combination with camber plates anyway, and the Steeda mounts gave enough camber adjustment not to worry about the plates.

What's the going opinion on linear vs progressive springs for street use? That's why I was thinking about the Ultra-Lites, but that advice also came from an AM video so I've taken that with a basketball sized nugget of salt.

 

[Pentalab]

Sam Strano told me that lowering would solve most street wheelhop problems so not to worry about relocation brackets.

That's BS. The 10-11-12 cars come with wheelhop, right out of the box. Lower the rear, and now the rear pair of LCA's are higher at the axle end, than the front end... which makes wheel hop much worse. You want the rear LCA's a bit lower at the axle end. I used BMR LCA's, BMR adjustable UCA..and BMR LCA relocate brackets.

When my car was lowered with the roush suspension package, it would pull violently to the left, when in the wet....and u get into the gas a bit. I lost it 4 times, just going to the dentist office and back..and that was all < 30 mph. So in went the BMR items. I initially used the top holes on the BMR LCA relocate brackets, which resulted in LCA's slightly lower at back end. A year later, I moved em down into the middle holes, which put the LCA's even lower at the back end. (they have 3 holes to choose from, providing a 2-3-4" drop at axle end). The whiteline version is identical, except it's fixed with the 3" drop.

I looked at the steeda LCA relocate brackets and was not impressed. The steeda brackets use only one bolt. Per their manual, you have to baby the car over to the welding shop, then weld em as well. The BMR LCA relocate brackets are bolted in three places ( 3 for each bracket). No welding required. They are 7/16" thick.

 

[Mackitraz]

Strano's response: "The LCA's are completely not needed. Most all the wheelhop you might have will go away from lowering." He's given great advice in the past on other forums I've frequented, but I'm clueless about that one (also literally, hence why I'm on the internet asking other Mustang owners what to do).

 

[Norm Peterson]

Strano's response: "The LCA's are completely not needed. Most all the wheelhop you might have will go away from lowering." He's given great advice in the past on other forums I've frequented, but I'm clueless about that one (also literally, hence why I'm on the internet asking other Mustang owners what to do).

Sam is partly right on this one.

Wheel hop isn't just about rear LCA inclination, because the shorter UCA is also involved in determining the anti-squat geometry and the shape of a curve mapping antisquat% against ride height.

Turns out that over the first inch or so below nominal rear ride height the antisquat% drops slightly before leveling out and increasing again. Given that the car's CG has also dropped slightly, that effect adds to that of the slope of the %antisquat line having increased.

These are relatively small effects, but at least they're in the right direction.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

That's BS. The 10-11-12 cars come with wheelhop, right out of the box. Lower the rear, and now the rear pair of LCA's are higher at the axle end, than the front end... which makes wheel hop much worse. You want the rear LCA's a bit lower at the axle end. I used BMR LCA's, BMR adjustable UCA..and BMR LCA relocate brackets.

Overly simplistic. You can hose your car's rear axle roll steer pretty badly if you only take that approach.


Norm

 

[DieHarder]

If you really want to eliminate wheel hop (while improving handling) you may have to invest a couple of grand into a full length torque arm and watts link setup. Griggs/Cortex both sell a decent setup for the S197 and I believe (the Cortex unit) have been reviewed by the this forum in years past. I've not used either but the reviews were positive for both.

https://cortexracing.com/product/xtreme-grip-torque-arm-system-2005-2014-mustang-s197/

https://www.griggsracing.com/product/MTA-1000-C/

 

[Midlife Crises]

Replace the stock soft rubber bushings in the upper and lower control arms and the wheel hop will be greatly reduced or eliminated. If you lower the car you may need relocation brackets to adjust anti squat. There is nothing wrong with the non adjustable control arm shown here. Run it with a urethane upper and there is no wheel hop. The upper or the lower control arm need to be adjustable so you can correct the pinion angle.

 

[Racer47]

If you really want to eliminate wheel hop (while improving handling) you may have to invest a couple of grand into a full length torque arm and watts link setup. Griggs/Cortex both sell a decent setup for the S197 and I believe (the Cortex unit) have been reviewed by the this forum in years past. I've not used either but the reviews were positive for both.

https://cortexracing.com/product/xtreme-grip-torque-arm-system-2005-2014-mustang-s197/

https://www.griggsracing.com/product/MTA-1000-C/

This is completely false. There is so much bad info on wheel hop that its depressing. These cars have been around for 15 years now. Everything there is to know is known, yet this type of bullshit remains popular on here.

Just because an aftermarket part is available doesn't mean its automatically better. It just means that its sellable. Camaros used to have torque arms. There are kits available to make them 3 links. So is a Camaro 3 link better than the torque arm?

Wheel hop is easily fixed with proper lower and upper trailing arm angles. You don't need to spend a couple grand.

 

[DieHarder]

Understood, granted I cannot attest to the validity of the claims these manufacturers make (no personal experience with either setup) however just thinking about the mechanical advantage of a torque arm that's at least 5 times the length of the UCA would appear to provide a distinct advantage over the shorter UCA for both getting power down and braking. I run with the shorter UCA myself (J&M) aftermarket LCA's/panhard bar and have replaced all rubber bushings in the rear w/urethane which while it does a good job there are still occasions I experience wheel hop.

 

[Racer47]

Read this.... https://www.dragzine.com/tech-stori...spension-adjusting-instant-center-anti-squat/

Anti squat is based on angles, not arm length. Although longer arms are typically better because of lower angle changes due to ride height change. In order to stop wheel hop, you need to be at 80% to 100% antisquat. You can go higher and drag racers do, but then you end up with rear axle hop under hard braking.

There are no current, professionally designed race cars that use torque arms (as far as I know). What I do know for a fact is that all tube frame road race chassis since the early 90s have gone to 3 link rears and a few 4 link rear suspensions. This includes all SCCA GT1, Trans Am, Trans Am 2 plus all asphalt late model oval track cars.

The 3 link rear on the S197 is a very good design that can be made better with the later model, 1" longer upper arm. And for lowered cars you need the adjustable upper arm chassis bracket (set on the highest hole) and rear lower control arm brackets (set on one hole lower than stock).

I know what I'm doing. I've raced for 30+ years, GT1, IMSA GTO, super lates. Plus I've run this car in high speed autoxs for the past few years. I won 4 of 6 in 2019, 6 of 6 in 2020 and so far 3 of 3 in 2021. This pic is from July 2020. I now have 6 more of these.