Help picking aftermarket camshaft

[SmokeOps]

I'm currently building my 3V and trying to choose the right cam for my setup. The car will be running Hooker shorty headers, a catless mid-pipe, FRPP intake manifold, FRPP throttle body, a CAI, and Livernois upgraded valve springs. My goal is a cam that will still make power up to around 6900–7000 rpm, with shift points around 7200 rpm. I'm looking at the Livernois Stage 2 NA cams, but real-world info is hard to find. I had originally considered the Comp Cams Mutha Thumpr NSR 234/254, but the Livernois cams seem to have similar duration with noticeably more lift, which I assume should help airflow—but I'm not fully confident since I'm still learning camshaft theory. If anyone has experience with these cams or can recommend the best cam choice for my goals, I'd appreciate any input.

 

[Midlife Crises]

A little help. First select the cam then pick the springs and retainers that are recommended by the cam manufacture for that cam. Cams that operate at 7,000 and above are going to require phaser lockouts. Do you have stock heads? Without ported heads 550 lift and the stiff springs that go with it won’t do much good. The strain on the valve train and timing chain is not your friend.

 

[SmokeOps]

I do not have ported heads would you recommend me just getting the NSR cams then

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

I do not have ported heads would you recommend me just getting the NSR cams then

I agree with @Midlife Crises that the extra valve lift of the SPR cams is of little benefit of you have stock heads.
Since you want to rev the engine past 6800rpm, you'll definitely need to upgrade the valve springs. Therefore you could go for a camshaft that provides a bit more valve lift than the 0.45" of most NSR cams, and that's the good ole Hot Rod cam.

 

[Midlife Crises]

I do not have ported heads would you recommend me just getting the NSR cams then

I think cams that will get you up to 6,800 or 7,000 with usable power will require springs. The lift will be around 500 or even 530 to work with stock head flow rates.
This will require springs and retainers to prevent coil bind and a little more seat pressure due to the more aggressive lobe ramps. The cam manufacture will recommend springs that will do the job without being too stiff. They may not be the strongest monster springs made. The 3 V timing chain and rockers do not like tons of spring pressure. I’d say Comp Cams 127500 would be about the “biggest” cam I’d attempt with stock heads.
I know you didn’t ask but, consider stepping up to longer tube headers. Kooks makes a very nice set that have tube lengths just right for the 3 Vs power range.

 

[SmokeOps]

@Midlife Crises the cams you said the 127500 have the same specs as the Livernois stage 2 NA cams. I hear you guys that I won't be getting as much gains with the increase in lift as I would with ported heads, but would it hurt me necessarily? I noticed that the price of just about every 3V cam is the same, whether that be a stage 4 race cam or a milder cam like Detroit Rockers. I think the rpm goal I'm going for, I will have to upgrade the springs, so might as well get a SPR cam, unless due to the restricted airflow from the stock heads would actually make me less power than an NSR Cam, then I don't see the harm in getting the SPR Cam. Just my thought process, but please correct me if I'm wrong, and thank you for all the current responses.

 

[JC SSP]

I dont have cams in my 05 GT so cannot add any insight but I have to ask… what are your goals & objectives with the car? Cams move the power band, so you have to take that into consideration especially if you have an automatic.

As stated, long tubes should definitely be considered and even more importantly, who is going to do your tune?

Post some pics of your Stang!

 

[bambam 06]

Mutha' Thumpr NSR 234/254 Hydraulic Roller Cam

COMP Cams
https://www.compcams.com › mutha-thumpr-nsr-234-25...




The COMP Cams Mutha' Thumpr NSR 234/254 for Ford 4.6/5.4L Modular 3V are hydraulic Roller cams with very rough idle and great power above 4900 RPM.

I have this cam for the last 8 years without a single problem, sounds great, adds about 20 HP. You need a tune, 3.73 or above gears and LT headers.

 

[Juice]

C&C ported heads,& stock cams > stock heads & any other cam. Keep VCT. If you must have cams, pick one that retains VCT.
Go for big cam, VCT lockout, stock heads for purely the sound.

 

[SmokeOps]

To answer @JC SSP my goal is to have a good NA setup making good power up to 6900-7000RPM, preferably around 340-360 plus whp. I’ve seen builds acheive this with all the bolt ons I listed but with a light weight flywheel and one piece driveshaft to squeeze out extra power. But I feel like they could make a little more power with a better cam that requires springs which I will be doing. I don’t have 3.73 gears but I do have 3.55 and a t-56 magnum which has shorter gearing from 1st-4th gear. To answer everyone who said I should go with LTH I understand but unfortunately I live in California so in the event that I get state refed or a fix it ticket I do not want to deal with the 8 hours of work to swap the headers if I run shorty headers and catless mid-pipe only the mid-pipe needs to be swapped which would only take me 20-30mins start to finish. As for the ported heads I want to do that but if I’m gonna port them I am GONNA PORT THEM and I don’t got the money to get something like Livernois stage 3 ported heads or a big port job that increase valve head size and stuff. I plan on getting tuned by Lito. I am leaning toward the comp cam 127500 that @Midlife Crises suggested since they seem like they’ll work with livernois upgraded valve springs but I will definitely ask whatever camshaft manufacturer I get what valves springs I should get. By the way the only reason I’m leaning toward the livernois springs is because I haven’t seen any videos on other brands. @Four Eyes on YouTube has livernois stage 3 heads that come with the springs I’m looking at and he’s running comps cams 127600 and revs out to around 7500rpm no problem. Again thanks for all the advice and input. (Old picture but I now have paint matched gt500 spoiler, coil over kit that lowered the car a little more, swapped GT badges for 4.6 badges, Front brake calipers off a 2022 GT that I painted a dark blue similar to brembos notorious blue)

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

To answer @JC SSP my goal is to have a good NA setup making good power up to 6900-7000RPM, preferably around 340-360 plus whp. I’ve seen builds acheive this with all the bolt ons I listed but with a light weight flywheel and one piece driveshaft to squeeze out extra power.

Look up Christian Reyes in Youtube. This was his build and yes, he still had stock heads and made 360rwhp/331rwtq:



This was Four Eyes before he built a 301ci stroker:



The only fundamental difference between them was the camshaft (SPR 127500 for Chris Reyes, Detroit Rockers for Four Eyes) & axle gear ratio (4.10 for Chris Reyes, stock 3.31 for Four Eyes).

 

[Midlife Crises]

Notice the Rockers make that 360 HP without going over 7,000 rpm. They also keep the VCT active for improved low end drivability.

 

[SmokeOps]

@Dino Dino Bambino I've watched Christian Reyes on YouTube before, just about all his videos, he had NSR cams when he raced the intake tune gen 1, and in a later video, his boss 302 budget build, he said he had blowbyracing stage 1 cams. Not sure where in his videos or description he says he has the 127500's. I want to do something like Christian Reyes, but with a more aggressive cam since it seems like he's just running NSR cams. @Midlife Crises I've been following Four Eyes for a long time, and I know he made that 360 with rockers, but I've seen a lot of other similar builds make less power, more so around the 330 range most of the time. I feel like Christian Reyes is more realistic since he is a top-end power build. I think Four Eyes has either got lucky with a really good engine from the factory or his tuner is really good. Not saying that the cars I've seen on YouTube had really good tuners and stuff, maybe they're not at their full potential due to the tuner something, but just something I've noticed in my research.

 

[SmokeOps]

I am also fine with losing a little low end. I am good with the low end on my car currently, and I think with the mods, the low end of the rpm band will be a little more or less than what it is right now.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

@Dino Dino Bambino I've watched Christian Reyes on YouTube before, just about all his videos, he had NSR cams when he raced the intake tune gen 1, and in a later video, his boss 302 budget build, he said he had blowbyracing stage 1 cams. Not sure where in his videos or description he says he has the 127500's. I want to do something like Christian Reyes, but with a more aggressive cam since it seems like he's just running NSR cams. @Midlife Crises I've been following Four Eyes for a long time, and I know he made that 360 with rockers, but I've seen a lot of other similar builds make less power, more so around the 330 range most of the time. I feel like Christian Reyes is more realistic since he is a top-end power build. I think Four Eyes has either got lucky with a really good engine from the factory or his tuner is really good. Not saying that the cars I've seen on YouTube had really good tuners and stuff, maybe they're not at their full potential due to the tuner something, but just something I've noticed in my research.

About 8:30 minutes into this video

with the dyno run.

Here's an almost identical set up making almost identical numbers 356/331. He probablly would have also reached 360rwhp if he'd revved the engine up to 6700 since the HP curve was still rising when the dyno run was stopped at 6400.



I think these dyno runs with the 127500 SPR cams prove that they don't produce any more power than Detroit Rocker NSR cams when paired with stock unported heads, and that the SPR cams will only make significantly more power than the Detroit Rockers when combined with CNC ported heads that'll provide a good amount more port airflow at 0.55" of valve lift than they do at 0.45" of valve lift.

 

[SmokeOps]

@Dino Dino Bambino I see, but if you look at the dyno graph from four eyes, his power curve starts to even out around 6200. I will port the heads at some time. I might try to port them myself a little bit for more power to get some gains now and save some money, since I have the tools for it, I'm pretty sure. I haven't really watched any videos on how to port cylinder heads correctly, but I think I could probably do a light port job on my own. If the stock tune can run on the ported heads, then I will try to port them myself. Just in case I have to go back to stock tune, I don't want to have to source stock heads and do a whole head job. If anyone knows if the stock tune can handle lightly to moderately ported heads, that would be nice to know. Also, honestly, I don't believe that rockers can get to that horsepower, at least not as consistently as the 127500 or other higher rpm cams. I'm sure that some car will, but from what I've seen, more spr or higher rpm cams make more power on average than hotrod or rockers. You might say why put more wear on the engine for 5-10whp, but personally, I like the higher revving builds and want to do one myself. It's not every day you see a 4.6 revving to the same rpm as a Coyote. The sound of a 3v at 7rpm is very nice in my opinion, and the added mph just makes it even faster. Christian had 4.10s, and because he was revving to 7k rpm he was still pulling the same mph in each gear as 3.31-3.55 gears at 6k rpm, basically more power for no mph sacrifice.

 

[Midlife Crises]

There is a reason you don’t see many 3 valves revving like a Coyote. Flame me if you want to but frequent runs above 7,000 and for sure 7,500 rpm and a 3 valve is a time bomb. Sooner or later something in the valvetrain will let go and it does not seem to mater whose parts are used.

 

[JC SSP]

I strongly suggest listening to words of wisdom from the forum members… it would suck to spend years and thousands of dollars chasing online dyno numbers or F1 style RPM redlines.

Not saying don’t mod your car, but do your research and have a target/goal in mind. If you want that high reving 3V then consider investing in a bullet proof engine. Just my .02 cents.

 

[Midlife Crises]

SmokeOps. You mentioned you have a T56 Mag. Which one? What is the 1st gear ratio? I’m running the 2.66 1st gear with 4.10 in the rear. I liked 4.30 in the rear better. 3.55s and a big cam is going to be hell leaving a stop sign.

 

[StockishS197]

Zero reason to spin a 3v above 7K IMO. Just not enough airflow to justify it. It’s not a coyote.

I have LTs, FRPP mani, Hot Rods and rev mine up to 6800 and that it’s more than plenty while still having VCT to keep the mid range somewhat happy. Going to an SPR max effort 7K plus cam will make it a dog everywhere else IMO.