Noise: Dealer says motor! WTF!?!

[SoundGuyDave]

Over the winter (parked indoors), I picked up a bit of "unusual" noise in the car... The noise itself is a throaty-sounding whine, that is only present after the car is driven for a bit. After driving for a mile or so (warmed up at idle), you can begin to hear a whine, apparently forward of the front seats, but not specifically oriented to right or left side, that sounds like a pump impeller noise of some sort. If you get under load to higher RPM's (like 4K or so), the tone of the noise gets louder. Returning to idle, the noise is still VERY present, and slowly fades to nothing, too quickly to let me get out of the car and stick my head underneath. My initial assumption was low trans fluid level (auto) causing the trans pump to cavitate, and since I had to run it to the dealer for the RCM flash, anyway...

Dealer just called, and their "trans guy" says that the trans is fine, he thinks it's "something in the engine." With a CAI, deletes, electric water pump, and long-tubes, they are, of course, indicating that it would not be a warrantable issue, and are recommending taking it back to whoever "put the chip in it." I'm having a tough time coming up with what the problem might be, and I'm not sure that it is the engine... Power is excellent, all underhood fluids are new or topped off, coolant temps (15% glycol, plus Water Wetter and distilled water) are stable, reading 170-185 measured in the block (driver's side rear mount), oil pressure at startup is 90-100PSI, idle at 30PSI hot. Oil temps range from 140-160 measured at the oil filter mount, on the return side of a remote-filter mount. When I get the car back, I'm going to pull the belt and see if that changes anything.

Anybody have any other thoughts? Oil pump?

 

[Hawgman]

could it possibly be power steering related? Maybe the pump or rack groaning?

Sounds like your stealership is pretty worthless.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Yeah, these guys are not the best bunch... MY dealership, where I bought the car was great, very supportive of the mods, but they got "consolidated" last year, leaving me with two area dealers... One tried to screw me on a sale a bunch of years ago (the "rebate shuffle" in finance), so I'll never set foot in there again. The other is the one where the car is now. I'm heading down to pick it up today, and I'll pull the belt. That should eliminate the noise if it is PS related, and if it is, I'm heading right back to them with that info. I think I'll also be cancelling the extended warranty... If it is PS related, it would have to be the pump, there's no change in the noise with or without steering load. I'll probably run the car to MY mechanic for a second opinion as well...

 

[Hawgman]

Well it being PS related is probably far fetched and probably not it. But just something I threw out there. I know my PS is noisey as hell and I could probably use a rack rebuild. Just haven't bothered to do it yet.

 

[ulev1st]

Pulling the belt may give you more answers...sometimes you will get a noise that is RPM related thru a tensioner or idler bearing goning bad. Let us knopw what you find out.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Okay, it's accessory-drive related... Also, the dealer staff are idiots. On the phone they told me it's "in the engine." When I quizzed them at the service desk, it THEN became "something to do with the engine." No shit. Really. When I started trying to get them to pinpoint why they unilaterally kicked it back out with a "no warranty" comment in the file, the service writer started going on about underdrive pulleys, how they make the car overheat, screw up the proper accessory speeds, etc. What REDUCING the speed of the belt would have to do with what is quite obviously a pump or bearing noise, I have no idea. When I get back to the shop, I'm pulling the belt, and starting to check for drag or end-play on everything up front... When I find it, I'm still going to call them back and tell them what the problem is, and then get them to justify not honoring the warranty. Any Chicago-area people know of a mod-friendly dealer?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

UPDATE

Okay, got the car back to the shop, pulled the belt, and started nosing around...

ITEM 1: There is a considerable amount of dust on the driver's side of the alternator.

ITEM 2: There is no end-play to speak of on any of the smooth idlers, the water pump (Mezeire electric), the tensioner, or the A/C compressor.

ITEM 3: The grooved idler can rock a reasonable amount on the pedistal, and when I pulled it to inspect, there were signs of aluminum shavings (powder, but not much of it) on the front cover, above the pulley mount but inside the diameter of the pulley. The bearing itself does move freely, I'm not sure how much drag there should be.

ITEM 4: There is significant end-play in the P/S pump pulley and shaft, accompanied by a "clunk" when reaching the extremes of travel. I threw a dial-indicator on it, and registered .028" of shaft travel.

The dealer has the idler in stock, so I think I'll start there. What torques me off more than anything is that I figured all that out in about 10 minutes. The dealer did NOT locate the noise or do any actual diagnostic work that I'm aware of, and promptly pulled my warranty on the engine based on having an underdrive pulley (Roush). My understanding of the Moss act stipulates that the manufacturer (or their rep: dealer) has to determine cause of failure, and if the failure is attributable to an aftermarket (non-manufacturer) part, then the warranty on the failed part is void, but ONLY on that failed part. I feel that the dealer's failure to determine the point of failure by simple logic means that they are unable to determine whether, in fact, the pulley is to blame. I think I have to start writing letters to get the "no warranty" phrase pulled from my file...

Thoughts?

 

[don_w]

Thoughts?

Here are my thoughts... dealers are for selling cars, not working on them. Ever. Period.

 

[88_Stanga]

Just so you know, the extended warranty is pro rated. So you will get screwed by the yet again when you get your check back, which takes 6-10weeks (in which you will still lose money on it) I owned an 06 for 1 year and traded it for an 07, i then canceled the warranty and got a check for 700 and some change. Very upsetting to say the least...and also you can have in and out play on the p/s pump, just not up and down.

 

[MLC40]

Okay, it's accessory-drive related... Also, the dealer staff are idiots. On the phone they told me it's "in the engine." When I quizzed them at the service desk, it THEN became "something to do with the engine." No shit. Really. When I started trying to get them to pinpoint why they unilaterally kicked it back out with a "no warranty" comment in the file, the service writer started going on about underdrive pulleys, how they make the car overheat, screw up the proper accessory speeds, etc. What REDUCING the speed of the belt would have to do with what is quite obviously a pump or bearing noise, I have no idea. When I get back to the shop, I'm pulling the belt, and starting to check for drag or end-play on everything up front... When I find it, I'm still going to call them back and tell them what the problem is, and then get them to justify not honoring the warranty. Any Chicago-area people know of a mod-friendly dealer?

Sounds like you have this worked out, but Sutton Ford, Sutton High Performance is located inside the dealership, is pretty cool about things.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Yeah, I think I have it narrowed down to either the grooved idler or the power steering pump... The thing that galls, though, is that the dealer is denying warranty coverage on something that obviously should be covered, particularly since the car only has 14,000 miles on it... The tone of the conversationa were just negative all the way around. "It's not the trans, it's the motor, no warranty with the aftermarket parts on it. You can pick your car up any time you'd like." If they had been even a LITTLE interested in fixing the problem, I would have offered to pay diagnostic time if the fault was found to lie with the aftermarket parts. I think that would be fair, either way. In this case, it's not about the money, we're talking about less than the price of ONE good tire here, but it's the principal of the issue. If I kicked a rod out of the block, or had a suspension squeak, I wouldn't even think of asking for warranty coverage. But for a failed front-cover accessory drive part? The only things involved there are an electric water pump and an underdrive crank pulley. The only way that I could see an issue due to the perf parts would be if the crank pulley was grossly misaligned. It's not. The fact that it underdrives the accessories would actually reduce wear on the idlers, since the bearings aren't spinning as fast as from the factory. Extra load on the alternator, I could possibly see as a reason that the regulator might have burned out (example: didn't happen), but in the case of the P/S pump, not so. The PS system is a constant-pressure design, and it makes enough pressure to trigger the bypass at idle, so no additional "load" there either due to reduced pulley RPM. I just really want them to pull the "no warranty" note out of my file. I'm assuming that anything typed on the printout is now in the file...

 

[Embalmer]

What dealership are you having problems with?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Packey Webb in Downers Grove... I'm not saying I'm having problems with them, but we have a significant difference of opinion. I'm doing the whole letter-writing thing tonight and tomorrow. So far, I have chapter and verse for the workshop manual diagnostics, text from the Magnuson-Moss Act, logic to refute any "aftermarket failure" claims, etc. as relating to the P/S pump failure. It's a $170 part, but as I said, it's the principle more than anything for me right now.

This is not a case of me asking something for nothing; this is, I believe, a straight-up factory component failure, and one that should be covered under warranty.

 

[F00Mustang]

When mine made the sound you're describing, it was the alternator going out. Just a thought, bust it may be related to the TSB on teh alternator.

 

[psfracer]

Here are my thoughts... dealers are for selling cars, not working on them. Ever. Period.

+ an F'n 1,000,000


I made the mistake of buying an extended warranty on one of my first cars a long time ago. It was worthless. I didn't buy the extended warranty on this car because I knew I was going to mod it. You change one thing and suddenly nothing is covered. Yes its against the law, but its always a major pain in the ass to get the dealer to do the right thing. I would rather not pay for the extended warranty and not have to deal with the drama, time, and effort and just fix the stuff myself.

 

[GI Joe]

did you check the fluid level in the pump? The end play is normal

 

[psfracer]

did you check the fluid level in the pump? The end play is normal

I was going to say that--low fluid level in the power steering pump happened to me, but it only made noise at very low speeds while turning (parking lot), and SoundGuyDave is a smart cookie, so I figured he had already checked that.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Yeah, the fluid situation is all good... I have the Canton reservoir, so no little "full" mark on the side, but I have a solid 1/8" of fluid above the baffle in the tank. I may just add a little more for insurance, but the fluid is nice and clean, no foaming or aeration. Good to know that the end-play is normal. In this case, the noise is relatively quiet at all times once the engine is warmed up and the car driven for a bit. If you get on it (think WOT to 4K or so), the background "moaning" turns into a full-blooded howl, and then slowly (45 seconds or so) fades back to the background again... I think it HAS to be a pump. Joe: You were the one running the P/S delete belt, no? Could you post the belt size for me, and what else was bypassed? I might just do that to confirm that it is indeed a pump, since the pulley swap looks like a PITA to me...

 

[shawn13]

Packey Webb in Downers Grove was your first mistake. Call Randy at Sutton he might help you out not sure if he can now that packey put a no warrenty mark on your car.

 

[ZmanM3]

Sounds like BS. I personally did not get the extended warrenty on mine, and I'm glad I didn't. I did get it on a GMC yukon I had and it paid for itself, so I got it again on my Avalanche and never had a thing go wrong with the truck in 102K miles.