Anyone tried a stock tune on a big motor?

[JC SSP]

He he, he could have just pissed into the tank.

Thats the running joke with him... LOL

 

[Flapjack]

And #2 is the reason the pcm will need to be restored by a Ford dealer.
Thanks for explaining why a restore to stock from a handheld does not fully restore the pcm.

I didn't realize someone already stated that. I just figured it would be the only corrective action if you've flashed it... as well as you having to sign on the dotting line that you understand your warranty is voided.

Flapjack you are correct! Never knew it was called e-fuse.

I have heard some people use a "piggy-back" interface tune (i.e., Neuspeed, DINAN, JB4 Berger Tuning, etc.) while a vehicle is under warranty because any uploaded tune would automatically trigger a change in the system, even when you would download it back to stock before going to get dealer servicing, the dealer knew the car was altered.

Yes, a piggy back system could get you by, but of course any evidence it was installed would have to be eliminated prior to testing. Not sure how good those guys are at finding shit (thank God I left CA in 1995).

As for voiding the warranty, I have heard it several times... but still think they may have the prove the modification caused the issue, however. Although leaning on the Magnuson-Moss Act has been a mixed bag in the past...

You can thank the diesel tuner community for that backlash. They totally ignored any EPA guidelines and blatantly put out tunes that were no where near compliant. They were daring the government to do something, and they did.
https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2020/03/diesel-brothers-fined-850000-for-rolling-coal/#
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a...ith-dollar10-million-fine-for-defeat-devices/

Yes, these guys. People removing cats and such have had an impact, but nothing like the diesel bros have. It pisses me off, because you can still tune/modify a diesel and not get the smoke... it's done intentionally to piss people off. My 08 F-350 is cat/DPF/EGR-free and smokes less than a stock truck (pre-urea solution). The problem is the people getting pissed off are typically idiot protestors and bicyclists, who tend to be left-leaning. Democrats love them some regulation.

 

[BottleRocket]

There is another alternative if it's do-able. Move to rural Arizona where there is no testing. I've been running Mustangs since 2012 and I've never had to have any of them tested. I'm running a set of BBK LTs that I bought them cheap off ebay from a guy who had to remove them because of annual testing and he made the decision to go back stock.

 

[Midlife Crises]

The problem is the people getting pissed off are typically idiot protestors and bicyclists, who tend to be left-leaning. Democrats love them some regulation.

Stupidest statement I’ve read in a long time. The problem is the inconsiderate shmucks belching black smoke on the hiway. I’m none of the things you describe but I hate the rolling coal smartasses and the attention they brought to the rodding and tuning community.

 

[Jwood562]

They're the CompCams VSR Stage 2 so as 3V cams go, they're pretty mild in a 281ci motor and they'll be even more tame in a 322ci stroker.



CA is taking smog Nazism to the extreme. Having your car with performance mods/tune potentially fail an emissions test even though the exhaust gases could actually be cleaner than stock is totally dumb, and that's because the inspection stations don't even perform tailpipe tests anymore to determine the real world emissions. This proves that the testing isn't about improving air quality but is really just a campaign to shut down the aftermarket performance industry.

yup, welcome to ca

 

[Cali HP Addict]

I have been running on an ST Motorsports tune that was made a long time ago. I smog checked this car with the ST tune for at least the last 10 years. Cali just screwed all of us who need "other than stock" tunes for our cars to run correctly. Car puts down 380/380 at the tires on 91 octane.
I talked to the tuning dept at American Muscle and they think the difficulty running the stock tune is going to be the cams. These are pretty mild and are used in the Saleen stage 3 cars.
I will NOT be running full throttle at all if I try the stock tune. The stock injectors will most likely fall short.
I will swap the intake, cmcv's and injectors, pop in the stock tune and try it out soon. If I have to swap cams, I may just pull this motor and put the stock one back in. I have less than 25k on the car. About 15k on the stock motor and less than 10k on this one.

 

[Flapjack]

Stupidest statement I’ve read in a long time. The problem is the inconsiderate shmucks belching black smoke on the hiway. I’m none of the things you describe but I hate the rolling coal smartasses and the attention they brought to the rodding and tuning community.

Your comment is stupid. I know you are but what am I. I'm guessing while you may not be a bicyclist or protestor, you're still left-leaning, otherwise you'd know what I mean. Guess you voted for JB, lol. Sorry things didn't work out.

Liberals bitch about that stuff. Liberals are the ones killing the tuning industry (and literally the rest of auto sports with it). A conservative may not like rolling coal (my diesel is tuned to NOT blow black smoke), but they're certainly not going to demand change to the auto industry because of it. Liberals, for the most part, are more for regulation and government meddling, period. You'd be hard-pressed to find others here that don't recognize that and rightfully place blame where it belongs.

As much as I can't stand moronic diesel bros, I would not take action to curb their idiocy... save maybe calling the cops if they were doing something reckless or endangering to others. If speeders (and hatred for speeding) caused government to get involved and mandate that all cars will have GPS-tied speed governing so you could never go over the speed limit, would you place the blame in the right place then (on the government)?

 

[JC SSP]

Flapjack if your ever in FL I will buy you a cold beer.

I still cannot forgive the big O for cash for clunkers. We lost a lot of good cars during that era.

 

[Midlife Crises]

Your comment is stupid

I will stand on my statement. Rolling coal was so annoying that enough people bitched and the government reacted. Seems to be the way things work. Condemning those idiots does not make me liberal or left leaning and who is JB?

 

[RocketcarX]

It will run fine; emissions MIGHT suffer due to the injectors firing out of sync with the intake valve now opening at a different point in time.
I bet it passes if you can get the monitors to actually set

 

[Jwood562]

It will run fine; emissions MIGHT suffer due to the injectors firing out of sync with the intake valve now opening at a different point in time.
I bet it passes if you can get the monitors to actually set

but thats the funny/weird part. they do not test for actual emissions anymore. they used to stick the thingie in the tail pipe and test and pass or fail based onactual emissions, after the visual. now its all visual and a newly added computer check to make sure the tune is OEM

 

[RocketcarX]

but thats the funny/weird part. they do not test for actual emissions anymore. they used to stick the thingie in the tail pipe and test and pass or fail based onactual emissions, after the visual. now its all visual and a newly added computer check to make sure the tune is OEM

With that in mind the car just has to set the monitors and not have any codes

 

[Cali HP Addict]

A good update boys & girls!
I put the stock cmc plates, throttle body, injectors and intake manifold back onto my stock compression big bore stroker 322ci with ported big valve heads and comp 300 series cams (no limiters).
Re loaded the stock tune from my Xcal 2.
Started it up and it ran like a champ!
Put 65 miles on it in about 3 driving sessions.
No codes, ran really great. Go figure?
Took it in yesterday for the smog check.
PASSED!! Visual as well as the California new testing equipment.
Hope this helps peeps in CA!

 

[JC SSP]

Congratulations! I thought the cam and no limiters would have caused an issue but great news.

 

[Cali HP Addict]

Thanks JC SSP!
I am probably going to get a custom Brenspeed tune which includes the cmcv in place. I would like to only swap the cold air intake and tune when I have to get a check every 2 years. I know this sounds lazy to many of you younger folk but I have had my fun and just want to enjoy this car. I would bet that it still puts down close to 380/380 at the tires with the cmcv in place.

 

[GlassTop09]

A good update boys & girls!
I put the stock cmc plates, throttle body, injectors and intake manifold back onto my stock compression big bore stroker 322ci with ported big valve heads and comp 300 series cams (no limiters).
Re loaded the stock tune from my Xcal 2.
Started it up and it ran like a champ!
Put 65 miles on it in about 3 driving sessions.
No codes, ran really great. Go figure?
Took it in yesterday for the smog check.
PASSED!! Visual as well as the California new testing equipment.
Hope this helps peeps in CA!

Excellent stuff!
If you don't mind me asking, could you post your engine's exact bore dia & stroke length? I'd like to run this thru my spreadsheet to calc the airmass lbs per cyl......I assume that you have the full 3.8" stroker kit installed if you're around 322 ci (what the SO ECU needs to know....this reps the engine's actual displacement for ideal max airmass calcs thruput......the ECU is actually making up for this difference in airmass "displacement" thru the NB O2 sensors feedback while running under CL......the same thing the ECU would do for a small vacuum leak).

FYI for all those interested.................this is why I posted I was curious to see the results from Cali HP Addict's "experiment" in earlier posting in this thread.......

While in CL, the Spanish Oaks ECU doesn't use a fuel map at all (fuel map is used only for OL WOT operations when the NB O2 sensors are disabled\offline).....only uses the EQ Ratio A\F Lambda equation to arrive at Lambda 1.0 A\F thus the ECU is also making up for any differences in fuel composition within a certain realm (stock OEM fuel stoich AFR setting in tune file for this MY engine is 14.64 for E0 fuel.......assuming y'all are using E10 fuel like the rest of us which it's fuel stoich AFR is 14.08 to 14.13, thus ECU is also making up for this thru the NB O2 sensor feedback as well). So as long as the MAF\ETC SD (speed density) TB calc's are accurate in airmass calc's & fuel injectors\fuel injector data is accurate the ECU can accurately correct off good NB O2 sensor feedback data to actual Lambda 1.0 A\F thus the ECU can also manage\control the cats emissions output below the Cat CE Ratio thresholds set in tune file by using the front to rear NB O2 sensor switching ratios while operating at Lambda 1.0 A\F.......while all is running under CL. The OEM stock IM has a lot to do w\ this due to the location\design of the EVAP port in it (a pitot tube behind center TB bridge in IM) thus provides even EVAP unmetered air\fuel vapors distribution into IM airstream\plenum thus ECU can also maintain control over this as well during the EVAP purge cycle (ECU uses STFT's & FTP readouts to determine canister status during EVAP purge, thus can "read" when the canister is empty of fuel vapors) to also maintain true Lambda 1.0 A\F thruout both engine banks......while running in CL.

Remember airmass thruput is controlled by ECU using the TB under DBW, so ANY component upstream\downstream of it has no meaningful effect on the airmass thruput going thru the engine until the TB goes WOT.....not CAI, not IM, not heads, not cams, not exhaust manifolds or LTH's, or cats\exhaust piping.....thus the ECU is THE controller of all this.....if ECU calcs for 15.62 lbs\min airmass flow to achieve a certain TQ output request from APP A\D counts calling for a certain amount of TQ output off the DD TQ Request map starting at the engine RPM's it is currently operating, ECU sets the TB angle thru the ETC SD TB calcs to allow 15.62 lbs\min airmass load as read off the LWFM map (calibrated MAF air load map off actual calibrated MAF tables thus should equal each other) & if the ETC SD calcs are accurate & the MAF is accurate, the MAF will AGREE w\ the ETC SD calcs once the actual airmass flow change begins so the ECU\TB is in full control of all airmass thruput until it goes WOT. Then the ECU calcs the proper amount of fuel to apply to calc'd airmass to hit Lambda 1.0 A\F thru the EQ Ratio A\F Lambda formula then uses the NB O2 sensor feedback to see if calcs are good or not & will correct fueling (MAF as well to a certain extent.....if MAF Adaption is left enabled in tune file, enabled by default in all Ford OEM stock tune files) for any MAF\fueling errors within a reasonable boundary back to true Lambda 1.0 A\F.....the same as ECU will do w\ the OEM stock cams & heads. So, your ported heads & CC 127300 cams don't "control\influence this" at all while engine is running in CL. The CC 127300 series cams are "full VCT-compliant" meaning that they can be retarded the full OEM stock 60* VCT cam angle retard range w\o piston-to-valve interference, thus are a type of "drop-in" camshaft (outside of having to replace valve springs due to the extra lift to maintain valve train stability under operation.....full drop-in cams reuse all OEM valve train components)......which ALL 3V drop-in cams will work under a stock tune's VCT load% map thus the engine should start up & run Ok.....not at optimum due to the VCT load% map in stock tune being physically "optimized" for the OEM stock cam timing points (think cam timing-to-crankshaft timing correlation) but OK.....while under CL due to these differences not being wildly radical. ECU is only looking for cam timing 0* to crank timing 0* synch thru the CKP\CMP sensors & will only "phase" cam timing 0* away from crank timing 0* according to the amount of cam degree retard that is entered in VCT load% map according to engine load% & RPM. So, as long as the stock VCT load% map's cam retard timing settings can retard the CC 127300 cams physical timing points enough to allow sufficient EGR flow back into CC's before cam EVC event during early intake stroke to control NOx output to maintain emissions thru cats, then collectively your engine should pass emissions (stock cam retard timing ranges where it counts are from 15*-55* retard which will definitely allow for this to occur.......will cut\affect available HP\TQ output some between .10 load thru .60 load thus affect some drivability performance but shouldn't be enough to negatively affect emissions......even stock cams aren't fully optimized for drivability HP\TQ output VCT wise).

Regardless of cams, heads, etc......Lambda 1.0 A\F is the same ratio so the engine exhaust composition should be the same all else being equal, the ECU-controlled front NB O2 sensor to rear NB O2 sensor switching ranges are the same & the VCT controlled EGR flow is the same & the ECU controlled airmass flow thru TB should be the same below WOT........so ask yourselves why so many modded NA 4.6L engines aren't able to pass emissions w\ cats installed? Even in California under CARB?

You just witnessed a modded Ford Modular 4.6L-based 3V V8 engine using non-stock ported heads, non-stock cams & uncorrected fuel stoich AFR setting, uncorrected engine displacement, uncorrected fuel injector EOIT ref CA setting, uncorrected VCT mapping in stock ECU tune file running off unoptimized stock spark advance timing set up for the stock cams.......easily pass strict California CARB emissions for the MY of this vehicle........the dreaded CARB emissions most vilify.............while running in CL.......?

Shows you just how well this old SO ECU can control all this using unoptimized tuning IF the catalyst emissions control mapping in the tune files that are used to maintain\control cat efficiency are left alone & operational......so just how well do you think these will LEGALLY operate if all the incorrect in-tune settings ARE corrected properly & optimized for HP\TQ output as well? Even in California under CARB?

BTW, none of this dictates\affects this engine's peak HP\TQ performance output capability as this occurs only when ECU switches into OL fueling using the OL Lambda base fuel map during WOT Power Enrichment operations (where emissions aren't being monitored or measured.....legally due to NB O2 sensors being disabled) off APP A\D counts exceeding the 545 A\D count threshold (or WOT) in tune file. If the cats SIZING is sufficient to pass the max exhaust airmass volume flow of this engine @ RPM redline w\o excessive deltaP thru them, then THEY won't hold this engine back either but STILL pass emissions while running under CL......

That is, unless piss poor maintenance\even poorer tuning than what you naturally see occurring here just by using the OEM intact stock tune file w\ a non-OEM modded NA engine is performed.

Now when FI is brought into this using a SO ECU........even w\ FI this can still be achieved, depending on the amount of airmass poundage flowed above 100 kPa (natural atmosphere) that can simply overwhelm a cat's ability to treat it all properly......not to mention the amount of excess heat generated cooking it causing failure. Due to the way the OS's are written\coded in the SO ECU's (uses simulation for atmospheric conditions above\below 100 kPa in tune files due to Ford electing to not equip these engines w\ a MAP sensor so not having full VE based SD tuning coded) making it very difficult to tune for HP\TQ & maintain adequate emissions at the same time......not impossible but very, very difficult so most tuners nowadays won't even try anymore.......legally that is.

But in NA config? The proof is in the pudding........really is no excuse. Especially in 2024...........

My 2 cents...............

Thanks for posting your results Cali HP Addict!


PS edit--just got a thought......you might talk to your State refs about the advent of installing an OEM 08-09 Ford Bullitt 83mm CAI on your car.........it is legal OEM Ford part that has EPA CoC signoff\EPA legal for EFN#9FMXV05.4VEK which covers all 05-10 Ford Modular 4.6L Mustang class V8's (includes the 08-09 Bullitt & all GT's) under CARB. This CAI has the airmass poundage flow capacity (50.307 lbs\min at 5.0v max stock MAF voltage) to darn near max out your 322ci NA stroker (50.307 lbs\min is just under 100% VE output of a 6.4L @ 392 ci V8 @ 6,250 RPM's @ 50.62 lbs\min) & allowing you to change out the calibrated MAF table only in your OEM GT's stock tune file for the OEM stock calibrated MAF table out of an OEM stock Bullitt's tune file (all is genuine OEM Ford stock tuning that will match up w\ the rest of the OEM stock Ford GT's tuning......I've seen the comparisons between the 2 OEM stock tune files & this will work). Stress that your engine is a std SBE 4.6L V8 engine................

That is, if you're looking\interested in a more potentially legally "permanent" solution......in Cali.....

What's the worst they'll say.............no?

Also, you might go onto your State's CARB web site and look up all the CAI's listed as legal to use w\ this EFN # above........you might be surprised to find a suitable legal aftermarket CAI that will fit your bill......that will also have the legal CARB EO# assigned to go w\ it.............. A little researching might be worth your time..........

Just saying........................

Hope this helps.

 

[Cali HP Addict]

Nice write up GlassTop09!!

I read the whole thing and understood about 5% of it. LOL.. I am going to read it again and try to learn a bit more for sure.
I started out with a 298 stroker and melted a piston on the dyno with a Saleen SC running 15#. Salvaged the crank and 7 rods, put these into a new Boss50 big bore iron block (94mm bore as it is sold) and had some custom Diamond pistons made. I think Adam @ ST Motorsports had the bores of the new block cleaned up a bit so I am not sure if this increased bore diameter of the new block. With my previous dyno tune from Adam, I was running CMCD's, 39# injectors, BBK twin 62 TB and a C&L racer 95mm CAI.
I have a couple of questions for you GlassTop as you seem to know your stuff.

1-Can I use the stock injectors for the new tune and not run out of fuel? Or should I tune for the 39#ers?

2-I have both, a C&L street intake w/ 83mm MAF & a C&L racer w/95mm MAF. Which would be most ideal for me to run with my setup? I have a C&L CARB sticker for the street intake but someone would have to know their s... to realize that it isn't for the racer.

I do not race. I just want the best driving car with gobs-o-fun power at the ready.
Thanks!

 

[Flapjack]

So... how much work would you say it was, and how often do you have to smog it out there?

 

[GlassTop09]

Nice write up GlassTop09!!

I read the whole thing and understood about 5% of it. LOL.. I am going to read it again and try to learn a bit more for sure.
I started out with a 298 stroker and melted a piston on the dyno with a Saleen SC running 15#. Salvaged the crank and 7 rods, put these into a new Boss50 big bore iron block (94mm bore as it is sold) and had some custom Diamond pistons made. I think Adam @ ST Motorsports had the bores of the new block cleaned up a bit so I am not sure if this increased bore diameter of the new block. With my previous dyno tune from Adam, I was running CMCD's, 39# injectors, BBK twin 62 TB and a C&L racer 95mm CAI.
I have a couple of questions for you GlassTop as you seem to know your stuff.

1-Can I use the stock injectors for the new tune and not run out of fuel? Or should I tune for the 39#ers?

2-I have both, a C&L street intake w/ 83mm MAF & a C&L racer w/95mm MAF. Which would be most ideal for me to run with my setup? I have a C&L CARB sticker for the street intake but someone would have to know their s... to realize that it isn't for the racer.

I do not race. I just want the best driving car with gobs-o-fun power at the ready.
Thanks!

Ah Ok, you have the Boss block as your base block & your using a 3.8" stroker kit so I'll run this & get the cyl airmass lbs off it's bore x stroke.

Ok............

1.) Technically yes........NA the stock Ford EV6 type 24lb injectors should be able to support 400-420 HP @ 90% DC. Question is......which 24lb injectors are you using, the Ford "black" 4-nozzle 24 lb injectors (std in 05-07 4.6L V8) or the Ford "purple" 6-nozzle 24 lb injectors (std in 08-10 4.6L V8). Don't get confused by both these being rated as 24lb meaning they're exactly the same......they're not. Ford created the purples (M-9593-LU24A) to provide a much better spray pattern for improved fuel atomization (meaning more TQ output & a cleaner fuel burn) vs the blacks (M-9593-LU24) AND the purples operate at 40.3 psi base vs the blacks at 39 psi base.....so in reality the purples actually put out slightly more than 24 lbs at max capacity.....thus can support a little more max HP than the blacks......Ford just rated them at the same 24 lb std for this 4.6L V8........FYI.

BTW, for all those 05-07 folks who are staying NA & SBE, here's a viable upgrade path for you if you like better low end\overall TQ output........you will need to\should use the Ford injector data for the purples & reset the desired base fuel psi from 39 psi to 40.3 psi in tune file for the ECU to get the full benefit of them...... Stock OEM fuel pump is good to go.......

But if you already have the 39 lbs (assuming Ford "blue" M-9593-LU39....can support NA in excess of 500 HP) injectors, IMHO I'd keep them in service w\ your stroker. Injector sizing only really matters at full WOT PE.....for good drivability the injector nozzle spray pattern quality & stable min injector rate flow control capability is what really matters & those Ford 39 lb "blues" are a good quality injector (even though they're discontinued......I got a good used set of them myself off Brendspeed's EBay store a few yrs back--where Brent White @ Brendspeed sells off any take-off parts from upgrades that the owners don't want to keep--for my future stroker build). Otherwise, the ECU is making the fuel calcs based off the injector data, IPW & FRP to match the airmass calcs to arrive at same Lambda 1.0 as any factory installed OEM fuel injector.......so fuel injector sizing doesn't matter concerning emissions (another red herring that the STATES use to hide behind the "certified condition" vs "original condition" argument as vaguely written in the Fed CAA.....).
In all honesty, unless the injectors being used are some off color vs OEM stock & are EV1 type instead of the OEM EV6 type (need adapters), I'd doubt any typical inspector would visually know the difference anyway............. The IM, TB, CAI & exhaust manifolds would be the bulk of any visual engine inspection IMHO.......you know, the big easy to see thus ID stuff.

2.) Well IMHO you already have this part covered.....IMHO use the C&L Street 83mm CAI w\ the CARB EO# unless it is proven that it can't carry the stroker's max airmass capacity at redline & at the max stable OEM MAF voltage range @ 4.8v......just ran some potential VE numbers based off a 5.2L engine at WOT @ 6,250 RPM's & a stock OEM 80mm CAI can just barely get it to 100% VE (typical for NA is 80%-90% VE, w\ your ported heads most likely closer to potentially 95% VE max depending on the cam profile being used AND the VCT cam timing used along w\ the exhaust components, ie cats max exhaust poundage capacity\mufflers max flow capacity) so I don't see any issue for the C&L Street 83mm CAI handling your stroker at up to 6,500 RPM's so in essence the C&L Race 95mm CAI is IMHO......."overkill"..............

Up to you in the end though.........

Just make sure that you have a good enough flowing cone air filter that is large enough on it as this is most likely where the C&L Street 83mm CAI can have an issue due to potential air flow restriction thru the filter at WOT, not the rest of the CAI & below WOT.
FYI........the smaller CAI MAF will definitely drive better overall, especially at lower engine RPM's due to its cleaner MAF resolution.......

FYI, the OEM 08-09 Ford Bullitt CAI has the same MAF ID of 83mm as the C&L Street CAI & is just as capable as well (in 50.3 lbs\min max airmass capacity range......which is comparable to a NA 6.4L--392 ci--V8's max lbs\min airmass thruput @ 6,250 RPM's @ 100% VE. This OEM Ford Bullitt CAI is the exact same CAI Ford used on all its 07-09 FR500 class race cars....).


Hope this helps.

PS--Just ran numbers.......w\ that Boss block's 94mm bore, to get 322 ci you'd have to have a 3.75" stroker crank (3.8" stroker crank will be 326 ci using the same Boss block) which calc's out to 0.0017813 lbs airmass per cyl. For comparison, stock 4.6L (281 ci) is 0.00155 lbs airmass per cyl. Thus, your engine's "displacement" in tune file vs actual is off by 15%. This is using natural atmospheric pressure @ SL.

So, your 16% posted in your OP is close............

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Flapjack you are correct! Never knew it was called e-fuse.

I have heard some people use a "piggy-back" interface tune (i.e., Neuspeed, DINAN, JB4 Berger Tuning, etc.) while a vehicle is under warranty because any uploaded tune would automatically trigger a change in the system, even when you would download it back to stock before going to get dealer servicing, the dealer knew the car was altered.

Piggy back doesn't change anything in the factory tune and doesn't show up in any testing. It doesn't do anything pcm wise except change what the map sensors and in most cases boost sensor sees.