Blow By - Not the company, my motor - Rebuild Advice Needed

[Boone]

I have an 05 GT with lots of upgrades, and I'm leaking oil from every gasket imaginable after a track day at VIR. It appears I have blow by on cylinders 1 and 2.

I have an extensive list of mods that include:

Livernois 3V stroker rotating assembly w/ .030 over pistons at 11:1 compression
Livernois Stage 3 N/A cams
Livernois Stage 3 heads w/ over sized valves
Phase locks
ARP head studs
FRPP etched valve covers
94mm head gaskets
C&L Racer intake
C&L Aluminum intake manifold
FRPP stock sized throttle body
JBA long tube headers 1 5/8" primaries w/ 3" collectors
JBA catted shorty H-pipe
Roush Extreme Performance exhaust
FRPP Cobra dual fuel pump
BBK high flow aluminum fuel rail kit
FRPP EV6 injectors - 80 lb./hr. (I know this is overkill for my current setup)
Meziere electric water pump
Mishomoto high capacity performance radiator (have the low profile fans, but not installed)
Mishomoto oil cooler kit
Steeda underdrive pulley system
RAM twin-disc clutch

My block is not sleeved, which, I believe, is at the core of the problem. Crank and pistons are "rated" to 1000hp. Car is a weekender with three HPDE's per year. No 1/4 mile trips in my future. It's a corner carver, and I'd love to target the Optima Street Car Challenge as my build goal.

I'll leave the rebuild route open to suggestions. Back as is with sleeves? New block, or machine existing? Power adder? Centrifugal or intake mount S/C? Turbos? Meth?

I must run cats in my area, so I want to stay with 93 octane. Other than that...

Here's your blank canvas...

Danny

 

[stkjock]

IMO - you really don't know what the issue is until you tear into the motor.

Could it just be you need new gaskets and be GTG?

 

[weather man]

3V doesn't need sleeves, especially N/A. Sounds like assembly issues if every gasket is leaking. Did Livernois assemble or just provide the parts?

 

[702GT]

Leaking from every gasket is a bit of a blanket statement. If it were true, weather_man is right, whoever put your motor together really doesn't like you. I'd make sure it's not leaking from one point and drooling to another.

 

[Boone]

I don't think it's just gaskets. Oil flowing from the oil pan gasket and pooling on the valve covers around the coils on both banks. Visual signs of oil on the pistons, and a compression test showed some high numbers on cylinder 1 and 2. As I understand, this is a possible sign of oil pooling around the rings.

I'm hearing the 0.030 over bore is not such a great idea with the 3V aluminum block. If the block is the issue, I'll definitely sleeve it to prepare for a power adder. I don't want to spend $1500 - $2000 for sleeves if they are not needed. Opinions on this appreciated.

Any thoughts on going back in with the same pistons into a newly sleeved block at 0.030 over if the pistons are not damaged? I'd stay N/A with this option. If I replace the pistons, I'm thinking I'll go back in at 9.5:1 to prepare for a power adder.

Still a clean canvas to work with.

 

[Boone]

Btw, Livernois did not assemble the motor. Just supplied the parts. Motor was assembled by a West Point automotive engineering grad and his rally car racing friend.

The Optima Ultimate Street Car Challenge is my target. Not that I'm going to run the series, but I want the car to be worthy. Driver isn't.

 

[702GT]

I don't think it's just gaskets. Oil flowing from the oil pan gasket and pooling on the valve covers around the coils on both banks. Visual signs of oil on the pistons, and a compression test showed some high numbers on cylinder 1 and 2. As I understand, this is a possible sign of oil pooling around the rings.

I'm hearing the 0.030 over bore is not such a great idea with the 3V aluminum block. If the block is the issue, I'll definitely sleeve it to prepare for a power adder. I don't want to spend $1500 - $2000 for sleeves if they are not needed. Opinions on this appreciated.

Any thoughts on going back in with the same pistons into a newly sleeved block at 0.030 over if the pistons are not damaged? I'd stay N/A with this option. If I replace the pistons, I'm thinking I'll go back in at 9.5:1 to prepare for a power adder.

Still a clean canvas to work with.

If you have breathers or a proper PCV system hooked up, a NA motor is not going to blow out valve cover/oil pan seals. Even if you had blow by to such a degree where gasket seals were being breached, you'd need a shit ton of boost behind it to break those seals. On that note, if blow by were that bad, it would be dead obvious by the diesel plume coming out of your tail pipes as well. Usually the smoke grade is, black = fuel, blue(ish) = oil, white = coolant/water.

Does your oil smell like fuel? That would pair up with the compression test as indication of blow by.

As far as bore, there's nothing wrong with .030 over, it's just safe practice that once a motor is .030 over that it can't be over bored again. Same goes for cutting the crank. Some people will do it, others would rather side on caution. If you decide to tear down the motor and rebuild it, you will have to get it sleeved. The nice thing about sleeving the block is you can order standard bore sleeves and start fresh again. Then the motor can be bored again (for possible future rebuilds).

Cheapest alternative, you could find a block that is still stock, and have it bored to match the pistons you currently have. This would save you the cost of sleeving the block.

Also, alternatively if you have the scratch for sleeving a block, you could just buy the Big Bore Boss block. It can be had with all the goodies needed to mount it up for the cost of sleeving your current block. You would need new pistons, but you can stick your stroker internals in the Boss block with the set of pistons you'd need, and have a 322CID motor. Then just sell your current stroker pistons to recoup some of the cost of the new ones. BruceH's 322 Boss block made 435whp/385wtq uncorrected NA. I think he used a 127500 Comp Cam, FRPP intake mani, and was pulling the motor to 7k/rpm.

There's lots of discussion on the Boss Block these days. If you did go FI, more cubes is more power for less PSI, making it safer on pump gas.

 

[Boone]

I'll do some more investigating to confirm my issues. My primary condern is getting to the root cause of my problem.

I hadn't considered the Boss block. It looks like something I need to look into a little further. I know the pistons are available for my setup.

Thanks for the information and food for thought. I'll update the thread as I dig into the engine and formulate a plan of action.

Danny

 

[niner555]

What are you getting for leak down numbers? How do you know for sure cyl. 1 and 2 have excessive blow by?

I would look over your breather system and make sure it is properly sized and venting correctly. If an engine is leaking from all gaskets, a LOT of pressure is being allowed to build in the crank case. A bit of blow by won't kill you, but not having it properly vented to relieve the pressure will cause all kinds of issues.

 

[justinsstang]

I wouldn't go centri or turbo on a road race car. If going FI I'd run a top mount s/c. It's just more predictable so I would think it'd be better around the corners etc.

 

[01yellerCobra]

I would think the centri would be better for road racing. It doesn't have the instant torque hit which would make coming out of corners easier I think.

 

[justinsstang]

I would want the instant torque hit. With a centri it's a guessing game wondering how much power is ramped up at 'x' gear and 'x' rpm. With the PD blower it will always be consistent, no guessing game. I guess I could be wrong, I just know I wouldn't want a centri/turbo in road racing. PD is more like NA, which is ideal for road racing IMO.

And this is coming from someone who has a centri sitting in the living room, getting installed Wednesday. So I have nothing against centris lol

 

[DILYSI Dave]

What is your PCV setup? Sounds like the motor is properly vented.

 

[01yellerCobra]

I would want the instant torque hit. With a centri it's a guessing game wondering how much power is ramped up at 'x' gear and 'x' rpm. With the PD blower it will always be consistent, no guessing game. I guess I could be wrong, I just know I wouldn't want a centri/turbo in road racing. PD is more like NA, which is ideal for road racing IMO.

And this is coming from someone who has a centri sitting in the living room, getting installed Wednesday. So I have nothing against centris lol

You'll learn how the car acts at X rpm in X gear. It's never a guessing game.

 

[tomkay]

May not apply to 3v but I had a 351cjt engine do this and it was broken rings in 2 cylinders.

 

[Boone]

I haven't done a leak down test yet. That will tell me a lot, I know. Even if I do have blow by, from what I'm hearing, my N/A engine couldn't be ejecting oil at a rate of one quart per 25 miles (of very hard driving) without additional problems. Any thoughts on what the additional problems may be?

I noticed my JLT oil separator line has a kink in it. Not totally closed, but definitely restricted. I also saw oil in the passenger side fresh air makeup tube from the valve cover to the intake before the TB. That's oil going the wrong direction.

I'll cross the power adder bridge when I come to it. May be sooner rather than later if I have big problems, but I'm considering the ProCharger D1-SC. I like the high revving nature of the centri's, and my primary track is VIR which has two very long straights where the blower can really get going.

 

[Boone]

Results Are In

After 3 months of waiting, my number is up for my suspected blow by issues. Here are the results I received from my builder:
#1 26%
#2 20%
#3 31%
#4 28%
#5 30%
#6 31%
#7 18%
#8 18%

It is my understanding that none of the results are good, and 30% is the fail threshold that requires rebuild. Correct me, if I'm mistaken, on my interpretation of the results, and please advise if I need to void ire the builder on his process further.

We'll be digging in next week, and that will be the time to decide a direction to go with the build. I'll be leaning on the advise of forum members, so thanks in advance.

 

[weather man]

If the motor was assembled correctly, whoever tuned it failed completely. You need to figure that out, or risk having the same sad tale of broken parts all over again. I would be pretty severely disinclined to give the same shop another pile of money for try number 2.

 

[Boone]

The tuning was done originally in Spokane or Seattle WA. When I purchased the car it had a bad follower on #5, and I changed out the damaged cam (did the pair) and followers on #5 and #6. At that time Pro Dyno did a tune and the car made 392 whp.

I've had multiple problems with the motor that I attribute to the amateur build mentioned earlier in the thread. I don't feel the tune was the problem. I have good components, and I have a mind to slap them on a Boss50 block with new pistons. Very little to purchase, and I get the benefits of the improved oiling performance of the Boss50. Also, I get everything reassembled properly by a professional.

To offset the weight gain compared to stock on the front end (Boss50, aluminum intake, supercharger, oil cooler, etc.), I'll likely lower the motor with a new K-member (car is a corner carver). I'm thinking 1/2".

Have I lost my mind?

 

[Boone]

A mere 5 months after having my blow by issues, and the verdict is in...

Motor is torn down and it would appear the block was bored for .030 over and the pistons used were stock diameter. The piston was slapping back and forth in the bore, and the gaps in the rings were huge. I'll post a couple of pics so you guys can have a good laugh at my expense.

The assembly is going to the machine shop for confirmation on all the measurements, but it looks like a major rebuild. With all the parts I can reuse for the 3V, I'm leaning toward the boss 323 which would only require the boss block and a new set of 3.700 pistons if everything else checks out. I'm staying NA and 11:1 since it's a corner carver. Anyone know how much weight that will add?