Saleen S/C's and High Air Inlet Temps

[tommygodfrey]

When the 2010 FR500CJ was under development using the "stock" water pump they were turning the coolant in the intercooler into steam because the blower discharge temps were so high. They switched to the 55gpm Meziere and not only did the coolant stop turning to steam, the IAT's went down to the 150deg range.

Draw your own conclusions.

Ok. How was the test constructed? What were the conditions? Just curious.

 

[fhlh]

so are we saying pushing coolant faster through the system will cool it better?
Will the coolant have time to cool in the heat exchanger (stock saleen or otherwise)at an increased rate?

 

[tommygodfrey]

so are we saying pushing coolant faster through the system will cool it better?
Will the coolant have time to cool in the heat exchanger (stock saleen or otherwise)at an increased rate?

That's my main concern with volume. On a street car that not getting abused on a continuous bases.

 

[Meikol02]

This is great discussion, I am looking forward to the testing...

 

[Department Of Boost]

Ok. How was the test constructed? What were the conditions? Just curious.

The car was strapped to the dyno and made repeated high load pulls. I’m not sure how they addressed “locking out” the auto trans.

There were 5 Ford project engineers and a mountain of testing equipment on site.

They were baffled for quite some time until someone suggested putting clear hose on the car to see if there was anything to see. Once the clear hose was put on you could see water going into the intercooler and steam coming out under WOT using the “stock” pump.

Once the “steam” problem was discovered testing stopped and the car was reconfigured for more targeted intercooler testing. The next test consisted of multiple pumps to test and 70 thermocouples in the system to collect data.

Of course I could describe the testing situation(s) in detail until my fingers fell off. If you have any specific questions let me know and I will see if I can address them for you.

 

[tommygodfrey]

The car was strapped to the dyno and made repeated high load pulls. I’m not sure how they addressed “locking out” the auto trans.

There were 5 Ford project engineers and a mountain of testing equipment on site.

They were baffled for quite some time until someone suggested putting clear hose on the car to see if there was anything to see. Once the clear hose was put on you could see water going into the intercooler and steam coming out under WOT using the “stock” pump.

Once the “steam” problem was discovered testing stopped and the car was reconfigured for more targeted intercooler testing. The next test consisted of multiple pumps to test and 70 thermocouples in the system to collect data.

Of course I could describe the testing situation(s) in detail until my fingers fell off. If you have any specific questions let me know and I will see if I can address them for you.

That's pretty interesting. So basically all you need is a hugh water pump and problem solved? Or do you suggest more volume of fluid also? It takes a lot longer to boil more fluid.

 

[Department Of Boost]

That's pretty interesting. So basically all you need is a hugh water pump and problem solved? Or do you suggest more volume of fluid also? It takes a lot longer to boil more fluid.

This wasn’t addressed as thoroughly as it could have been. They only needed the car to be able to make passes down the 1/4 opposed to something like a DD that would always have a certain level of heat soak and then be asked to make a few WOT runs (on a closed course….of course).

Logic would dictate that more volume on hand would lead to lower IAT’s to a point. But eventually no matter how much water you are hauling around it’s going to heat soak to a point.

When testing was done with thermocouples all over the place two data points that were scrutinized very closely were the ones at the discharge port of the intercooler (hottest water) and the discharge point on the heat exchanger (in theory the coolest water). Testing was postponed for cool downs when the heat exchanger discharge water got to the point where the heat exchanger wasn’t pulling enough heat out of it anymore (water was heat soaked). I seem to remember it being after 5-6 WOT runs. Then it would need a short cool down and testing could resume. There was also a lot of interest in what the intercooler water discharge temps were. They were being watched for signs that the water was being run through the intercooler too quickly. It never became an issue. Even after stepping up to the 55gpm pump the intercooler discharge water temps still continued to climb which means that more heat was being transferred to the water despite the higher volume of water.

Setting up for a “street car” brings all sorts of additional hurdles and variables. My testing program is in its infancy but so far it looks like your standard “battery size” overflow tank, big pump and a massive heat exchanger is the direction to go. Most of that statement is irresponsible speculation though. I won’t have any hard data until I get down to some serious testing (snow on the ground right now). I’m pulling and logging data from the intercooler discharge, heat exchanger discharge and IAT sensor. I’m hoping to be able to analyze the information and make changes based on the data. I’m guessing my first step is going to be to enlarge the intercooler “ports” on the intake so I can run -12AN directly into the intercooler. If that bears fruit I will probably go with a single pass intercooler with -12 in -12 out. Which was recommended to me by an engineer at Bell Intercoolers.

At this point I don’t know much aside from the above though. I’m working off of a little experience, theory and advice from people in the field. I have a lot of testing ahead of me.

 

[Department Of Boost]

It helps to have a heat exchanger like this for sure though. This is a BeCool "Pro Stock" radiator part # that I modded to work as a heat exchanger. Between this, the "Battery Box" overflow tank and the intercooler the system takes just over a gallon and a half.

 

[tommygodfrey]

Good info. I can tell you on some of my own personal testing with my 03 Cobra that a basic tank ( battery size ) with oem hose and oem pump on the street with a base single pass Afco not a cool dual pass or even the one sized of the Shelby my car would never see over 130degrees crusing or even with heavy loads driving ( no ice ) just mainly water with a very light dab of antifreeze. Now this was on a serverly spun KB 2.8H make 28psi of boost. Like I said earlier 1/4 mile in dead heat of summer 90% humidity / 95 deg temps / track temps in the 140's. I would see max of about 133 degrees.

I did a lot of testing on this back in the day.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Good info. I can tell you on some of my own personal testing with my 03 Cobra that a basic tank ( battery size ) with oem hose and oem pump on the street with a base single pass Afco not a cool dual pass or even the one sized of the Shelby my car would never see over 130degrees crusing or even with heavy loads driving ( no ice ) just mainly water with a very light dab of antifreeze. Now this was on a serverly spun KB 2.8H make 28psi of boost. Like I said earlier 1/4 mile in dead heat of summer 90% humidity / 95 deg temps / track temps in the 140's. I would see max of about 133 degrees.

I did a lot of testing on this back in the day.

I don’t have a hard time believing that at all. With just a big Afco and everything else stock my “overspun” 03 Cobra didn’t have any issues either.

One thing I have not touched on and could be a huge factor is the air, or lack of air passing through the heat exchanger on a S197. The 03 Cobra’s where about 1000 times more aerodynamic than the S197 is it is feasible that more air was forced through the HE with far less “spillage” around the sides.

Because of that I have “fenced in” my HE to the lower opening in my bumper cover (done after the pics above) so every bit of air entering the lower opening is forced though the HE. We’ll see how that works out.

There are so many factors involved with the efficiency of an intercooler system like these cars have. One little thing could throw a wrench into the works. I’m just going to plug away at every variable I can think of until I get it at the point of diminishing returns.

I’m thinking it’s easier to make power by dropping IAT’s than throwing bigger cams, bigger exhaust, bigger heads, bigger valves, etc, etc, etc.

Or I could be wasting my time.

 

[fhlh]

Because of that I have “fenced in” my HE to the lower opening in my bumper cover (done after the pics above) so every bit of air entering the lower opening is forced though the HE. We’ll see how that works out.


Or I could be wasting my time.

We do this to the radiator of our LeMons car, directs air right to the radiator and temps dropped.
Saleen even makes a kit to do this.
http://www.saleeninstructions.com/
2005 – 2009 Ford Mustang Saleen Radiator Baffles Kit Installation Instructions [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Part Number: 10-8001-C18465A

Probably only works with there bumper covers, though.
[/FONT]
I don't think you are wasting your time! Thanks for the data!

 

[Starfire]

What is the GPM of the stock pump. I don't think it would be that hard to swap in a meziere pump

 

[Skarkull]

One thing that I have learned working with electronics is heat management. In electronics we use huge heat sinks with massive fins and fans to move heat. Has anyone thought that the problem might have alot to do with airflow over the heat exchanger (H/E)? With there being a radiator and a/c coil behind the H/E air flow is restricted. If you could move the H/E to it's own area of airflow, you could make your H/E more efficient. Maybe two smaller H/E's mounted infront of the wheels like so would help.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[Department Of Boost]

What is the GPM of the stock pump. I don't think it would be that hard to swap in a meziere pump

I've been told 7.5gpm. But have also been told that a lot test out quite a bit lower than that.

When you hold the stock pump in one hand and the Meziere in the other you would think the Meziere was a starter motor it weighs so much more!

 

[Department Of Boost]

One thing that I have learned working with electronics is heat management. In electronics we use huge heat sinks with massive fins and fans to move heat. Has anyone thought that the problem might have alot to do with airflow over the heat exchanger (H/E)? With there being a radiator and a/c coil behind the H/E air flow is restricted. If you could move the H/E to it's own area of airflow, you could make your H/E more efficient. Maybe two smaller H/E's mounted infront of the wheels like so would help.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I don't see how you could deliver enough air to the front side of them without some sort of custom bumper cover. Could be a great idea but the R&D would cost a fortune and take forever.

I'll know pretty soon if my HE is doing the job. If the water coming out of the discharge port is anywhere near ambient you won't get it any cooler than that without ice, a "Killer Chiller", etc.

 

[Meikol02]

Spoke to Dave at Saleen

The stock Saleen I/C pump is rated @ 317 GPH or 5.28 GPM. However the coolant flow through the entire I/C system (reservoir, pump, H/E, I/C & lines) is estimated to only be 1.5 to 2.0 GPM.

Here is the earlier post from this thread about the pump rating...

 

[pacettr]

I would think that at some point a larger tank reaches the point of diminishing returns if the system is efficient enough.

 

[tmcolegr]

Today I received my Canton battery box mounted I/C reservoir. Nice looking piece. Now that I have the unit in my hands I did some measuring and determined that with the tank filled 1" from the top, the tank has 421.5 cubic inches which equates to 1.8 gallons of liquid - 960% more fluid than the stock Saleen reservoir. You'll notice this reservoir also has a relief valve incorporated into the tank.

 

[Barricade]

Well....Install that bad boy and let see it!

 

[tmcolegr]

Well....Install that bad boy and let see it!

Planning on installing this weekend. Battery has already been removed from the box in preparation for the reservoir.