The Great Oil Debate

[ctt326]

I use valvoline VR1, has lots of zinc for less than $5 a quart....10w30

That's what I use in mine as well. Zinc and phosphorus are very good for bearings but hardly any oils contain much of it because they will both clog cats. That's why it is a "racing"" oil.

 

[Dillon Dollar]

That's what I use in mine as well. Zinc and phosphorus are very good for bearings but hardly any oils contain much of it because they will both clog cats. That's why it is a "racing"" oil.

hmm im very intersted in this zinc additive in the oil, i kind of want to try some out i see you run 10w40 W/ zinc what brand of oil is it and where are you buying it

 

[Speed+Clinic]

More pressure = less flow. Pressure is a measure of force and restriction. Oil flow has to be maintained for cooling and a wedge. It's a delicate balance. The oil also has to make it to the heads to lubricate and act as a hydraulic fluid for the valvetrain.

BTW this is a forum dedicated to the S197 platform. That's why I quoted minimum specs for a 3v.

Here's a few samples from the first motor I built.

Virgin RP 5w-20

This is the first run with RP. The motor was broken in with conventional oil.

It was after this analysis that I decided the whole oil geek thing is not for me. As long as I'm running API certified oil in a viscosity that works for my motor I'll be alright. I've tried 0w-30 and 5w-30 but both increased valvetrain noise. Valvetrain failure has been documented on this site. The why is undetermined. Could be bad parts. To me more noise = more chance of failure.

Everyone on this site has reasons for what they use and I don't wish bad juju on anyone.

I want the oil that will flow as much volume as possible while maintaining pressure and a wedge.

I don't buy into the "sky is falling 5w-20 is a government sponsored attack on car owners" mentality. If you want to it's your business. I think it's pure bullshit.

All that is perfect but as I said earlier most valve train failures are from not having enough oil pressure at low revs to move a phasers with high lift high lbs springs.

Please take the time to read some of the information please. It is ok having a product that meets API certified levels but why not having one that beats the min by a million...On the other hand is there any other data that 5w-20 performs better other than "thats what the sticker says"?

As far as the CAFE standards... you do know that all FORD v8 engines sold in the us that require 5w-20; in australia where there are NO cafe standards, the SAME engine requires 5w-30. This includes the 4.6 3v s197 again please take the time to read some of the links I posted. Afterwards if you continue with your recommendation all will be great.

 

[1950StangJump$]

Royal Purple Syncromax

Okay, RP is in. Remember, I was having no real issues with my MT82 to begin with, so take this in that context. Also, it was 62 degrees out.

When I first pulled out of the driveway, I thought "Wow, this is worse." But, the oil must have had to get worked into the syncos; because, as I rowed through the gears the first time, it started feeling really good.

The car doesn't "suck" the gear shift knob into gear, i.e. the level of effort for each shift is the same as before. However, this oil was an improvement of the stock oil in that each shift is one "click" and into place. No more of he occasional, notchy and crunchy shifting.

Again, this was one 15 mile drive in 62 degree weather. I guess it will be 6 months before I know how it works in sub-freezing weather.

FWIW.

 

[13726548]

So you put mobil1 one time and you threw 4 rod bearings, cracked a piston and a blown ring?

The problem with lubrication is that there is a lot of hearsay going around. The only 100% sure way to know if the oil you selected is working adecuately is by doing an oil analysis. Its only like 12 bucks and takes out the guess work...

This.

It's unfair to blame an engine failure on the oil brand. There could have been other things going on, like an oil pump failure, normal wear and tear, and/or just plain old abuse. All of those oils you have on the list of worst oils are API SN approved for the passenger car versions and they will do as well as the Supertech that you praised.

 

[BruceH]

Afterwards if you continue with your recommendation all will be great.

I don't recall recommending anything. It would be foolhardy to do so imo. I have given my reasoning for my choices, tight clearances. I kept the Ford clearances in my motor in part because of vct and the stock georotors and pressure relief spring in my oil pump. I don't want to trigger the pressure relief valve or put too much stress on the georotors.

Most of the people on this forum do not have cookie cutter motors and other things have to be accounted for. I know most turbo guys go with a 10w-x because keeping the turbo cool is a priority and they generate alot of heat. Others have clearances specific for the application, etc.

 

[13726548]

Please take the time to read some of the information please. It is ok having a product that meets API certified levels but why not having one that beats the min by a million...On the other hand is there any other data that 5w-20 performs better other than "thats what the sticker says"?

As far as the CAFE standards... you do know that all FORD v8 engines sold in the us that require 5w-20; in australia where there are NO cafe standards, the SAME engine requires 5w-30. This includes the 4.6 3v s197 again please take the time to read some of the links I posted. Afterwards if you continue with your recommendation all will be great.

http://fordtruckworld.tenmagazines.com/visit.asp?http://www.dantheoilman.com/modular.xls

This spreadsheet is a good starting point for comparison. When you do an average of the xw-20 weight versus xw-30 weight oils, the wear numbers for 20 weights came in lower.
I know these are F150 engines we're talking about but the V8 versions are still a part of the Modular engine family. And there are a handful of other oil analysis results on BITOG that show 5w-20 brings lower wear numbers.

Also, please right click and save as to view the spreadsheet.

 

[Speed+Clinic]

I don't recall recommending anything. It would be foolhardy to do so imo. I have given my reasoning for my choices, tight clearances. I kept the Ford clearances in my motor in part because of vct and the stock georotors and pressure relief spring in my oil pump. I don't want to trigger the pressure relief valve or put too much stress on the georotors.

Most of the people on this forum do not have cookie cutter motors and other things have to be accounted for. I know most turbo guys go with a 10w-x because keeping the turbo cool is a priority and they generate alot of heat. Others have clearances specific for the application, etc.

Can you please read the links about oil...

The first weight is the Winter weight, at 60F a 0w-20 and a 10w-20 will have the same viscosity... All oils from a class 4 base stock will have uniform molecules which results in less friction. But an oil just being able to cool better than another one I still haven't been able to read one article that denotes this.

Thevexact same 3v is sold in australia and the only difference between both is that they recommend 5w-30 there...

 

[Speed+Clinic]

1372 what engine is that? What were the oil change intervals? What brand oil? All of this factors among others must be taken into account when talking about engine lubrication.

 

[BruceH]

Can you please read the links about oil...

The first weight is the Winter weight, at 60F a 0w-20 and a 10w-20 will have the same viscosity... All oils from a class 4 base stock will have uniform molecules which results in less friction. But an oil just being able to cool better than another one I still haven't been able to read one article that denotes this.

Thevexact same 3v is sold in australia and the only difference between both is that they recommend 5w-30 there...

Better cooling comes from increased flow. Increased flow comes from less resistance. Cooling is one of the purposes of motor oil.

Is 5w-20 available in Austrailia? More than likely there isn't a local source with the technology to manufacture it. Could be the climate, I'm not really concerned with it. I am concerned with my motor though.

I've spent alot of time reading oil links and I'll never get that time back. I've never read one that tested viscosity vs clearance at different points in the motor, at different oil temps, what pressure was needed with a specific viscosity, or what was needed to maintain a wedge at specific clearances.

Edit: I decided to google 5w-20 Austrailia and this popped up:



In a letter to all FPV dealers recently, Mr. Paul Cook Head of Programmes FPV & Prodrive Australia advised that “only one oil is recommended for the new range of supercharged BOSS 315 and 335 engines … and that’s Castrol Edge 5W-20.
During the design and development phase of the supercharged BOSS 315 and 335 engine program, Prodrive worked closely with Castrol to develop a unique and specific lubricant formulation to withstand the demands of the most powerful V8 engine ever offered by FPV.
Mr Cook also went on to state that “Castrol Edge 5W-20 is a high performance engine oil engineered to both reduce friction and ensure maximum protection of all engine components, which assists in delivering more engine power and enables these high output engines to return outstanding fuel economy complying with the strict Euro IV regulations.

Despite increases in both power and torque with the new supercharged BOSS 315 and 335 V8s, Castrol’s Edge 5W-20 low friction formula provides premium wear protection for these new performance engines where maximum efficiency is demanded.

Castrol Edge 5W-20 is the only approved oil for the FPV BOSS 5.0 litre Supercharged engines having passed the specific requirements of the Prodrive oil testing & validation program.”

At Castrol, we know a thing or two about performance. It’s what has driven us for over 100 years.


Edit 2: Searched availability of 5w-20 in Australia. It's just recently been imported and available for retail sale. This is from a Chrysler forum:


Author: audifred [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:33 pm ]Post subject: SAE 5W-20 top up engine oilSebring ownership in Australia is proving interesting to say the least.

I decided to buy some top up engine oil.

The recommended oil as noted on the engine oil cap is SAE 5W-20 for the 2.7L Flexfuel engine.

I have read that different grades of oil should not be used, so off shopping for SAE 5W-20 I went.

Now here is the rub..... 5W-20 is not available retail here in Australia!

Apparently General Motors Holden and Nissan are investigating having it marketable in the next 6 months or so, but Chrysler has not seen reason to have it already in place for retail sale.

The Service Manager at the nearest Chrysler dealership confirms that they use 5W-20 when doing oil changes.

To me this means that Chrysler have ensured a monopoly on engine oil changes if you want to maintain the recommended grade, and that they have an "out" if you top up with another grade, and the engine has issues.

Sneaky buggers I think!

 

[JAJ]

Okay, RP is in. Remember, I was having no real issues with my MT82 to begin with, so take this in that context. Also, it was 62 degrees out.

When I first pulled out of the driveway, I thought "Wow, this is worse." But, the oil must have had to get worked into the syncos; because, as I rowed through the gears the first time, it started feeling really good.

The car doesn't "suck" the gear shift knob into gear, i.e. the level of effort for each shift is the same as before. However, this oil was an improvement of the stock oil in that each shift is one "click" and into place. No more of he occasional, notchy and crunchy shifting.

Again, this was one 15 mile drive in 62 degree weather. I guess it will be 6 months before I know how it works in sub-freezing weather.

FWIW.

Interesting. My experience when I went through a bunch of gear oils back in February was that it took about 100 miles to get to the point where they performed consistently. That, and it took me that long to get over the "glow" from that "new gear oil" smell.

Thanks, and keep us posted!

 

[mustangflanagan]

does racing oils breakdown faster than convential oils?

 

[Mattr89]

So you put mobil1 one time and you threw 4 rod bearings, cracked a piston and a blown ring?

The problem with lubrication is that there is a lot of hearsay going around. The only 100% sure way to know if the oil you selected is working adecuately is by doing an oil analysis. Its only like 12 bucks and takes out the guess work...

re-read my post. Penzoil caused the problem. I know penzoil caused it, its a fact. Its blown two different engines, and when i rebuilt them with royal purple they were fine.

This.

It's unfair to blame an engine failure on the oil brand. There could have been other things going on, like an oil pump failure, normal wear and tear, and/or just plain old abuse. All of those oils you have on the list of worst oils are API SN approved for the passenger car versions and they will do as well as the Supertech that you praised.

mobil1 has burnt oil in EVERY single car i have used it in FACT. Penzoil has blown 2 of my engines. I know for a fact its shitty oil, i would NEVER buy penzoil.

there is no way that 2 different cars would blow with penzoil if it wasnt the oil, because i rebuilt them perfectly, when i did it again and fixed the rod bearings the exact same way i did the first time, i used royal purple and they are are both still going strong 8 years later with 100+ k on them!

Penzoil worst oil every, mobil1 burns too much oil!

 

[ctt326]

hmm im very intersted in this zinc additive in the oil, i kind of want to try some out i see you run 10w40 W/ zinc what brand of oil is it and where are you buying it

it's 10w-30 Valvoline VR1

 

[13726548]

1372 what engine is that? What were the oil change intervals? What brand oil? All of this factors among others must be taken into account when talking about engine lubrication.

The oil change intervals are listed on the spreadsheet. They are various 4.6L and 5.4L F150 engines from various F150s.

Brand is unknown, but I thought we're debating viscosity, not brand. Therefore it is irrelevant.

 

[Speed+Clinic]

The oil change intervals are listed on the spreadsheet. They are various 4.6L and 5.4L F150 engines from various F150s.

Brand is unknown, but I thought we're debating viscosity, not brand. Therefore it is irrelevant.

So in other words you are saying that all brands have the same viscosity?

 

[Speed+Clinic]

does racing oils breakdown faster than convential oils?

The other way around

 

[Speed+Clinic]

1. Better cooling comes from increased flow. Increased flow comes from less resistance. Cooling is one of the purposes of motor oil.

2. Is 5w-20 available in Austrailia? More than likely there isn't a local source with the technology to manufacture it. Could be the climate, I'm not really concerned with it. I am concerned with my motor though.

I've spent alot of time reading oil links and I'll never get that time back. I've never read one that tested viscosity vs clearance at different points in the motor, at different oil temps, what pressure was needed with a specific viscosity, or what was needed to maintain a wedge at specific clearances.

Edit: I decided to google 5w-20 Austrailia and this popped up:



In a letter to all FPV dealers recently, Mr. Paul Cook Head of Programmes FPV & Prodrive Australia advised that “only one oil is recommended for the new range of supercharged BOSS 315 and 335 engines … and that’s Castrol Edge 5W-20.
During the design and development phase of the supercharged BOSS 315 and 335 engine program, Prodrive worked closely with Castrol to develop a unique and specific lubricant formulation to withstand the demands of the most powerful V8 engine ever offered by FPV.
Mr Cook also went on to state that “Castrol Edge 5W-20 is a high performance engine oil engineered to both reduce friction and ensure maximum protection of all engine components, which assists in delivering more engine power and enables these high output engines to return outstanding fuel economy complying with the strict Euro IV regulations.

Despite increases in both power and torque with the new supercharged BOSS 315 and 335 V8s, Castrol’s Edge 5W-20 low friction formula provides premium wear protection for these new performance engines where maximum efficiency is demanded.

Castrol Edge 5W-20 is the only approved oil for the FPV BOSS 5.0 litre Supercharged engines having passed the specific requirements of the Prodrive oil testing & validation program.”

At Castrol, we know a thing or two about performance. It’s what has driven us for over 100 years.


Edit 2: Searched availability of 5w-20 in Australia. It's just recently been imported and available for retail sale. This is from a Chrysler forum:


Author: audifred [ Sat Jan 29, 2011 10:33 pm ]Post subject: SAE 5W-20 top up engine oilSebring ownership in Australia is proving interesting to say the least.

I decided to buy some top up engine oil.

The recommended oil as noted on the engine oil cap is SAE 5W-20 for the 2.7L Flexfuel engine.

I have read that different grades of oil should not be used, so off shopping for SAE 5W-20 I went.

Now here is the rub..... 5W-20 is not available retail here in Australia!

Apparently General Motors Holden and Nissan are investigating having it marketable in the next 6 months or so, but Chrysler has not seen reason to have it already in place for retail sale.

The Service Manager at the nearest Chrysler dealership confirms that they use 5W-20 when doing oil changes.

To me this means that Chrysler have ensured a monopoly on engine oil changes if you want to maintain the recommended grade, and that they have an "out" if you top up with another grade, and the engine has issues.

Sneaky buggers I think!

1. Yes but thats not what you said, this is what you said: "I know most turbo guys go with a 10w-x because keeping the turbo cool is a priority and they generate alot of heat." Again what does the winter rating have to do with cooling off. Any documentation?

2. http://www.lucasoil.com.au/content/view/24/100/ lucas australia 5w-20
http://shell-racing.com.au/racing-oil.html
http://www.castrol.com/castrol/multipleproductsection.do?categoryId=9000164&contentId=7024136
5w-20 is available in australia, so now after you have decided not to read any documentation that has been provided, you quote a marketing partnership? Ford Recomends Castrol, now that wasn't a partnering up deal? Still doesn't say why Saleen, Roush, Shelby, etc Recomend 5w-30...

3. Scott Whitehead: "I'm not going into details here, but I know I've talked to several people on this list before about this. Please do not put 5w-20 or less into a mod motor. Please.

That is all...."

"I'm assuming you're not referring to my comments, or don't know my background? Are you aware that I spent about 10 years doing engine development with Ford Motor Company, including being the systems engineer on the 2003 Aviator and 2005 Mustang V8s?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chim-Chim
Would you recommend 5W-30, then? I have been running the Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend.

Scott: "5W-30 is probably a good oil for the street with mixed temperatures, yes."

Quote:
Originally Posted by GT4Point6
?? Not sure what your saying. Are you saying to not run 5w-20 in the mod motors? I wouldn't run it any thinner but 5W20 is the spec oil from most Ford engines since 2001. If there is somehting wrong with it, I'm sure we would see a lot of people with motor problems. Mustangs, CVs, F150, F250-550 and what ever else the put the mod motors in and I'm just not seeing that on the Mustang and Truck forums.

Scott:"I think you'll understand that I can go into details here. And understand that I'm not saying that 5W-20 is not going to instantly do damage. But suffice it to say I've seen and been involved in a LOT of development on these motors, and my personal opinion is that I would never run 5W-20 in a modular motor. Regarding your "spec oil" comment, you need to look at what else governs this recommendation.

I apologize for not being a little more clear and forthcoming."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bassen
Scott, does your 5W30 recommendation carry over to 5.4L 3V motors?

Scott:" Yes. I would not run 5W-20 in ANY stock mod motor. This is especially true in 4v motors, but applies to all of them in one form or another."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Houstonnw
Steve Bassen asked about the 5.4L 3V motors and I'm interested in the 4.6L 3V motors. I understand that the variable valve timing is based on the engine tolerances and I would assume, the oil viscosity.
So if you were taking a 3V Mustang to track days, what oil would you use?

Scott: "My *PERSONAL RECOMMENDATION* would be to run a good fresh synthetic in the 5w-30 to 10W-40 range. And keep an eye on oil temps and oil pressure variations. The oil viscosity might slightly change the VCT's transient behaviors, but I wouldn't expect significant issues. I admit that I've never tested or seen testing relating to oils thicker than 10W-40, so I can't comment on that."

Quote:
Originally Posted by dbower
Scott: I would be very interested in why you think 5w-20 is a bit too thin for heavy use.

Scott: "Because I've seen the dyno testing. I've probably looked at several hundred engines disassembled and spread out on inspection tables. And I've been involved in testing to resolve issues where varying the oil viscosity was part of the test DOE. Trading a very small FE improvement in exchange for a large durability safety margin is not something I'm interested in doing."

__________________
Scott W
Driver - Rhino Brothers Racing - NASA AIX / AV8SS #63
Ex-Crew Chief - Rehagen Racing - Grand-Am Cup #52, #58, #59
Engineer - Michael Waltrip Racing - NASCAR Nextel Cup #47, #55, #00

Those are his specific coments unless anyone can find any solid information on the contrary, I think the safest route is going with what the dude that designed the car has to say.

 

[BruceH]

I wonder what the clearances were on the test motors? I also wonder what volume and psi the test oil pump was putting out. I'd imagine they used data from the testing phase to tweak the final configuration.

 

[13726548]

So in other words you are saying that all brands have the same viscosity?

No, but again, that's not the topic of discussion here. You could start a whole new topic on how different brands of 5w-30 have different viscosities and shear rates.