Will there will be a run on S197 cars shortly?

[Juice]

#4, as I understand it, its about emission control. With an auto, the pcm has more control.
Cost prohibitive to switch to an EV. It is cheaper for me to put fuel into my current car without car payments vs fuel savings and a monthly car payment.

 

[Pentalab]

EV's should have a tax applied to them based on the miles they drive. Every year at inspection time, they check mileage. Apply a tax rate at that time.

You just nailed it..and many states have proposed legislation on the books to bilk EV and hybrid owners.
With the massive loss in tax revenue on declining gasoline sales volume, the tax money has to come from somewhere, so the 'savings' will amount to...nothing in the end. Then expect increased surcharges on electricity costs...to pay for all the new required infrastructure.

 

[Pentalab]

I believe 0% of electric charging/use FUD. These problems will be handily solved, and soon.

Just don't do something stupid and install solar panels. ROI = 25.4 years. A buddy in Nevada told me he stopped selling his excess electrical power back to the power company. Power company was only paying him 4 cents per kwh (wholesale rate), plus he had to pay income tax on it.

Most states and provinces will take your 'excess' power on a 1 for 1 basis...for now. In Sask, summer of 2018, Sask power stopped buying all excess power back from solar panel owners. 1 state in the us has stopped buying back excess power.....and 6 more states plan to follow suit.

Previously, the way it worked was you ran up a credit during the daytime....then used your credit at night. On Dec 31, at midnight, any leftover credit is wiped out..and you start again, on Jan 1st. The idea of course is to size everything accordingly, such that you have minimal credit on new years eve. You don't even want to know what baseball sized hail stones do to solar panels.

 

[Shaffe]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread but maybe the Coyote powered cars.

The 05-10 cars are nice, but IMO the styling looks super dated, especially compared to the 11-12 and 13/14. Also the 3V was a very meh engine.

 

[tjm73]

Also the 3V was a very meh engine.

I disagree. The 3V was very much not MEH...........until the 5.0 DOHC arrived and made all other Ford V8's second or third tier players. SO not MEH, but heavily overshadowed by the 5.0 DOHC.

 

[Shaffe]

I disagree. The 3V was very much not MEH...........until the 5.0 DOHC arrived and made all other Ford V8's second or third tier players. SO not MEH, but heavily overshadowed by the 5.0 DOHC.

Maybe I look down on the 3V a little harsh because I enjoyed my 04 better than my 07 haha.

 

[Juice]

Maybe I look down on the 3V a little harsh because I enjoyed my 04 better than my 07 haha.

Thats no reason to look down on 3v. The real reason is the pretzel stick rods and they fail well below rated HPx2 power levels. Left stock with bolt ons, they are fine.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

The 3V was very much not MEH...........

It's actually a damn good, durable engine and arguably one of the best sounding V8s on the planet. The two-piece plugs on the earlier (to 11/2007) engines were the only real Achilles heel, and most of those have already been replaced. The stock powdered metal I-beam rods are strong and light enough for a 7500rpm HCI N/A engine, but they were never intended to cope with the elevated cylinder pressures of FI. In a boosted engine, 450rwtq and 6500rpm seem to be the limit but the rods can bend/break at lower power levels if there's detonation. Nothing that a set of forged rods/pistons plus billet oil pump gears couldn't fix.
The only reason why the 3V doesn't get the love it deserves is because it's been overshadowed by the Coyote. In that case, a Coyote-swapped '05-'09 S197 could be the hot ticket.

 

[Norm Peterson]

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread but maybe the Coyote powered cars.

The 05-10 cars are nice, but IMO the styling looks super dated

I think I'd call the 05-10 car styling 'simpler'. That's a good thing.

Also the 3V was a very meh engine.

that put out essentially the same power and torque numbers as the normally aspirated 4-valve 4.6L. Obviously Ford could have gotten quite a lot more out of the 4.6L by using many of the same approaches they used in the Coyote. 385 HP @ 6500 and 350 ft*lbs @ 4500 should have been stupid-easy.


Norm

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

that put out essentially the same power and torque numbers as the normally aspirated 4-valve 4.6L. Obviously Ford could have gotten quite a lot more out of the 4.6L by using many of the same approaches they used in the Coyote. 385 HP @ 6500 and 350 ft*lbs @ 4500 should have been stupid-easy.

It IS stupid easy.
A 3V with a CAI, underdrive pulleys, LT headers, NSR cams, Ford Performance intake manifold with 62mm TB, and a tune will easily beat those numbers and top 400 crank hp.

 

[Shaffe]

I think I'd call the 05-10 car styling 'simpler'. That's a good thing.


Norm

To me they looked great when they came out, it was amazing. to me the style didn't age well though

 

[Juice]

I think the real reason Ford built the 3v was for emissions by adding the VVT. They were not shooting for HP.
The designers of the coyote had performance and lonngevity as the primary goals.

 

[tjm73]

The 3V exists because they wanted the 4V 4.6 power for the GT but not it's production costs. The 3V could make the same power that the 4V made. 2 less camshafts, 3/4 the valves, 2 less timing chains. It adds up.

Ford also wanted IRS on the GT but it also didn't make the cut.

http://www.drivingenthusiast.net/sec-blog/2011/09/03/all-about-the-missing-mustang-irs/

 

[Rich]

Maybe I look down on the 3V a little harsh because I enjoyed my 04 better than my 07 haha.

You say the 3V is meh and it pushes 300 to the crank, has a better chassis, beefier axles and better styling, but your 04 only pushed 260 to the crank, in stock trim, and that wasn't meh? I don't understand your rationale...unless your 04 was modified.

 

[Rich]

I think the real reason Ford built the 3v was for emissions by adding the VVT. They were not shooting for HP.
The designers of the coyote had performance and lonngevity as the primary goals.

They definitely were shooting for horsepower bragging rights. I remember during that time they touted 300 horsepower for the first time in a production Mustang GT all the time. Sure there were Mustangs that came before with 300 horsepower or more but they weren't mass-produced, they were special, one-off models like the Cobra and such.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

I think the day will come when '05-'09 GTs will become desirable again, but that may be another 15+ years away when they reach classic status. People will buy them as a piece of nostalgia and won't care much about the tech. It's likely most would end up being restomodded (much like '65-'70 models currently) to make them usable in a more modern era.
As '65-'70 models are becoming increasingly rare, I think the much stiffer-chassis of the '05-'09 will become appealing to those who'll want the classic looks but without breaking the bank. I think those who currently own one should hang onto it. As long as the bodyshell remains straight (no major accidents) and virtually rust free, you needn't worry about wearing out mechanical parts as these can be easily replaced or updated.
The '05-'09 has virtually bottomed out in terms of depreciation in value but it's a long way from being old enough to become an investment. The 2008 Bullitt will become a future collectible since it had a limited production run, but it would have to be fitted with 100% OEM components and original dark highland green to command the highest value. As for the '07-'09 GT500, it'll always be desirable and good ones will inevitably command premium prices.

In another 15 years from now, there won't be any mechanical parts left to replace and if by chance you should happen to come across someone who's a classic car parts collector by then? Those parts are going to pretty much be useless anyhow as fossil fuels become that much closer to extinction and out of reach at the pump for those who are in the lower-middle class. Perhaps in another 15-20 years from now? the 2005-10 GT's will become desirable again, but unfortunately IMO, the only restofitting that will be readily available by then will be converting over to electric lol.

I'm with ya on that. I love old cars and I find the cheap/retro themed interiors of the 05-9 to be charming To all of you saying there's plenty of 05-09 cars out there, I don't know where you're seeing them because I don't see them in Tampa or Orlando (two large cities). S550's are a dime a dozen on the road, but I rarely see an S197, and when I do, it looks like it just came back from Vietnam

Since the debut of the S550's in "15" I don't really see that many S197's on the roads here that often anymore, but still a few at our local car cruise/car show events.

That makes freaky sense now that you mention it. I see new Edge Mustangs quite often, but I never see 94-98 Mustangs, ever.

For some reason the "94-98" SN-95 models weren't as desirable as the new edge "99-04" models were.

Yup. They probably get stored away in barns for several years until the owners have completely forgotten about them. Then one day, a Richard Rawlings wheeler dealer type appears out of nowhere and offers to buy the whole lot.

Or Wayne Carini type from "chasing classic cars"

I would tend to agree, I don’t ever really see any other S197s around, plenty of Coyote cars but not too many 3v’s. That said I do see a fair few V6s that have had a rough life, those will be the ideal swap candidates down the line. My C/S would probably be classified as one of those beat-to-shit examples but it sounds good, drives nicely and makes me laugh so it’s not going anywhere.

Agreed.

Not too many s197’s around me unless they’re v6’s. All the loud mustangs around here are s550’s, and one super loud new edge.

Same here as well.

I'll be keeping my '08 GT for the same reasons I bought it in the first place . . . and that's not even considering the matter of avoiding having to get an EV.

It's got a reasonably competent chassis that responds well to minor modification, it's fast enough for any street driving I'll ever put it to, and its emphasis was still on driving rather than today's extraneous complexity and emphasis on technologies that I never needed before (most of which I'd rather not have now). Near as I can tell, it's as fast in a straight line and probably faster around a road course in its current state than an original showroom-stock Boss 302.


Norm

Same exact reasons I intend on keeping my "06" GT as well.

View attachment 76269

Nothing is changing enough to really matter for at least the next 30-40 years. Are EV's coming? Yes. In fact, they are already here. But they will get better and be more widely adopted. Is it worth getting excited about? No. Because their are too many gas cars/trucks around to simply walk away from them like flipping a switch. It will take 20-30 years to change over from the last few years IC is widely sold.

We are not even close to ready to start a mass switchover to EV. For a host of reasons. The largest of which is producing the needed electricity. Followed by distributing it. It will costs a lot of money and time to build just that part of it. Decades. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

The real issue, as Pentalab alluded to, is modifying cars. Most of us don't realize (or chose to ignore) that the laws to effectively stop modifying cars have been on the books for almost 50 years. Much of what is being done is and has been illegal for longer than some of us have been alive.

Prior to Biden and the left, I would've agreed with this, but now that Biden's already on this green and renewable energy kick in addition to the dems taking control of both houses of congress, if congress does end up passing Biden's clean energy policies, as I suspect they will? I don't see the internal combustion engine nor fossil fuels being around beyond 15-20 years from now, if they have their way?

Modifying/hotrodding you car is not illegal. Removing or disabeling emission equippment IS. As long as you use CARB approved upgrades, it is perfectly legal. Which brings me to my latest mods, LTs and minicats.

There are three reasons you are allowed to 'replace' your catalytic converters, per Flowmaster. (Going with their SS 3 way)
1 missing
2 failed
3 certain age, sorry dont recall the years.

I have posted this before, it is those who chose to ignore the law are the ones fucking it up for the rest of us.

Ps: funny thing, the JBA LTs were sold as Carb legal except CA emissions states. See attached pic. lol

View attachment 76270

I don't recall seeing anything on the attached pic that states the JBA LT's are emissions or CARB legal except CA emission states anywhere. All I could make out is that it's legal for off-road and competition use only!

Thats kind of missing the point. I would rather be stopped by the emission police and have illegal cats vs NO cats.
Second, it should be a non issue if the pcm passes the obd tests without tuning tricks.
Third, if Im going "off road" use, then NO cats will be installed. I have no idea why cats are sold as "off road" use only. Thats an oxi moron.
Its good to be emissions excempt!

The removal of any portion of the OEM catalyst system is illegal according to federal law. Therefore, it doesn't matter as to whether or not a non OEM catalyst system can pass the OBDII emission tests? Whether you choose to accept it or not, it is an issue and is what it is.

I didn't get a chance to read the whole thread but maybe the Coyote powered cars.

The 05-10 cars are nice, but IMO the styling looks super dated, especially compared to the 11-12 and 13/14. Also the 3V was a very meh engine.

What do you think the definition of retro-styling is there, Slick? That was Ford's intention when they introduced the fifth generation Mustangs in back 2004. Say what you will about the styling of the 05-09 cars as looking super dated, but if it had not been for the huge success of the 2005-09 S197 models, Dodge would had never brought back the Challenger from extinction after a 31 year hiatus, which btw: hasn't had a major re-style since it was re-introduced back in 2008. Same can also be said for the Crapmaro since being re-introduced in 2010. Also FYI: the 4.6L 3v was ranked as one of the best and most reliable engines by Montgomery Ward. Also 300 HP. at the crank was far from being just meh until GM resurrected the Crapmaro back from the dead in 2010. Then Ford bounced back with the 5.0 Coyote the following year in 2011 and the rest is history. Also, just so you know, the styling changes of the S197 Mustang first took place in 2010 and remained unchanged until the 2013 model year!

 

[eighty6gt]

good political bickering in this thread

I feel really fortunate to have had my '08 when new, and then was able to throw all of the aftermarket stuff at it. The M90 days were my favorite, I think.

 

[Rich]

Say what you will about the styling of the 05-09 cars as looking super dated, but if it had not been for the huge success of the 2005-09 S197 models, Dodge would had never brought back the Challenger from extinction after a 31 year hiatus, which btw: hasn't had a major re-style since it was re-introduced back in 2008. Same can also be said for the Crapmaro since being re-introduced in 2010. Also FYI: the 4.6L 3v was ranked as one of the best and most reliable engines by Montgomery Ward. Also 300 HP. at the crank was far from being just meh until GM resurrected the Crapmaro back from the dead in 2010. Then Ford bounced back with the 5.0 Coyote the following year in 2011 and the rest is history. Also, just so you know, the styling changes of the S197 Mustang first took place in 2010 and remained unchanged until the 2013 model year!

Agreed and well said. People forget too quickly how well the 05-09 sold and it carried the torch for 3 years as the only domestic muscle you could buy. People dog the 3V because all they care about is power. As soon as a newer engine comes out that has more horsepower than the previous, the previous engine is irrelevant in all cases for no reason at all and with no explanation. People have such short term memories that they forget all the fun the previous engine gave them because all they can do is live in the moment . The 3 valve is a great engine, that makes good power through the Rev range, utilizing the VCT makes good torque down low and decent horsepower up top and for the time was the only 300 horsepower, mass produced, stock muscle car engine you could buy. In reality, it all comes down to a vast majority of people are never satisfied with what they have and they always want more. People may disagree with me, but this forum and every other form out there about any subject proves that I'm right. Hell, I've fallen victim to it myself, but at some point you got to say enough is enough. I've learned to be happy with what I have in life and not wanting more or being upset about what I don't have. Life has been wonderful.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

Agreed and well said. People forget too quickly how well the 05-09 sold and it carried the torch for 3 years as the only domestic muscle you could buy. People dog the 3V because all they care about is power. As soon as a newer engine comes out that has more horsepower than the previous, the previous engine is irrelevant in all cases for no reason at all and with no explanation. People have such short term memories that they forget all the fun the previous engine gave them because all they can do is live in the moment . The 3 valve is a great engine, that makes good power through the Rev range, utilizing the VCT makes good torque down low and decent horsepower up top and for the time was the only 300 horsepower, mass produced, stock muscle car engine you could buy. In reality, it all comes down to a vast majority of people are never satisfied with what they have and they always want more. People may disagree with me, but this forum and every other form out there about any subject proves that I'm right. Hell, I've even falling victim to it myself but at some point you got to say enough is enough and now that I've learned to be happy with what I have in life and not worry about wanting more or be upset about what I don't have, life has been wonderful.

Totally agree 110% spot on and even better well said

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

In another 15 years from now, there won't be any mechanical parts left to replace and if by chance you should happen to come across someone who's a classic car parts collector by then? Those parts are going to pretty much be useless anyhow as fossil fuels become that much closer to extinction and out of reach at the pump for those who are in the lower-middle class. Perhaps in another 15-20 years from now? the 2005-10 GT's will become desirable again, but unfortunately IMO, the only restofitting that will be readily available by then will be converting over to electric lol.

Fossil fuels won't be close to extinction 15 years from now. Sure, demand for them will diminish but it won't stop altogether. Oil producers will continue to regulate petroleum prices as they've always done by balancing supply with demand.
Mechanical parts for '05-'09 Mustangs will continue to be supplied by the aftermarket for the foreseeable future just as they are currently for all generations of Mustangs. They'll probably be more modern upgrades over the original parts (i.e. restomod) and if the IC engine is still around by then, it'll be a more powerful cleaner burning version. Note that even right now, the cheapest brand new Modular based crate engine you can buy is a Gen 3 Coyote. In 15 years' time the game will have moved on even further. Perhaps by then, that "crate engine" could instead be a powerful electric motor with battery pack.