The Great Intercooler Water Pump Test

wht67

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Back from the dead.... Any test results on the newer GT500 pump?
 

Pentalab

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Nope, I have been slammed. Next week.:wink:

I'm waiting for the results with anticipated breath. Dunno what size fittings are on the in + out. If it comes with 3/4" fittings..then what ? If you can morph it up to say 1.25" hose, you still have the 3/4" bottle neck, but flow, on paper should still improve. If you get ur hands on one, perhaps measure that for all of us, plus weigh + hwd.....and how much current it sucks under load. Measure the Vdc...right at the pump when u do this.

Depending on type of motor used, some will improve with more vdc..some don't.

http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/gonn...pumps-in-series-to-maximize-cooling-motorama/ You may have read this info b4. 1-2-3 Bosch pumps in series...vs 1-2-3 jabsco cyclone pumps in series. 2 x Bosch is better than 1 cyclone. 2 x cyclones is better than 3 x Bosch...and very effective. The gain from a 3rd pump is minimal, 6%. Either 2 x bosch or 2 x cyclones was the most effective setup.

Apparently, liquids follow the same basic rules as air pumps. If you want to double the flow rate, you have to quadruple the pressure. Required pressure goes up to the square of the ratios. Triple the gpm means 9 x the pressure...which is extremely difficult to pull off. Even a 50% increase in flow rate requires a (1.5 x 1.5) = 2.25 times increase in pressure.

Your method of lowering pressure requirements by using 1.25" fitting on everything in the path, ic-he-degas-pump etc, will work good. Even using 1.25" hoses on 3/4" fittings will work... the pressure should drop where the bigger diam hoses are used.

That re-programmed stewart emp flows a bunch.... but the damned things sucks 25A !

Extrapolating the data... two of the 13-14 GT-500 pumps in series...along with 1.25" fitting and hoses, where ever possible, and big enough ga wire to minimize V drops is probably going to be as good as it gets.
 

Department Of Boost

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I'm waiting for the results with anticipated breath. Dunno what size fittings are on the in + out. If it comes with 3/4" fittings..then what ?
It has 3/4" fittings.

If you can morph it up to say 1.25" hose, you still have the 3/4" bottle neck, but flow, on paper should still improve.
I haven't run this exact test, but something like it. With the EWP150 (turbo pump) at 1.25" everywhere (a full system with IC, HE and hose) it moved 19gpm . I put a 1" ID 1" long restrictor at the IC (in and out) and flow dropped to 16.75gpm. If you run the turbo pump at 1" everywhere it flows 14gpm. So there is absolutely an improvement in running bigger lines and keeping the restrictions to a minimum. But, if you run the Turbo pump at 3/4" everywhere it flows 8.5gpm. So it takes a pretty good whack at 3/4".

Fuzzy math says that if you run the Turbo pump and everything at 1.25", but pout a 3/4" restriction in you get 11.4gpm. Fuzzy math though. But maths out that there is an advantage running 1.25" everywhere on a 3/4" restriction.

That said the 13' GT500 pump will have to work VERY well to be a better buy than the Turbo pump. The Turbo pump is a lot less money, it has 1.25" ports and I don't think the GT500 pump will out flow it. Maybe it will on a full 3/4" system, maybe. But I highly doubt it will at 1" and 1.25".

If you get ur hands on one, perhaps measure that for all of us, plus weigh + hwd.....and how much current it sucks under load. Measure the Vdc...right at the pump when u do this.
I have one here. That's the plan.



http://caddyinfo.com/wordpress/gonn...pumps-in-series-to-maximize-cooling-motorama/ You may have read this info b4. 1-2-3 Bosch pumps in series...vs 1-2-3 jabsco cyclone pumps in series. 2 x Bosch is better than 1 cyclone. 2 x cyclones is better than 3 x Bosch...and very effective. The gain from a 3rd pump is minimal, 6%. Either 2 x bosch or 2 x cyclones was the most effective setup.
Interesting link. All that data is theory though correct?


That re-programmed stewart emp flows a bunch.... but the damned things sucks 25A !
Yeah, it's a BEAST! I'm skeptical that two GT500 pumps in series will outflow it though.

Extrapolating the data... two of the 13-14 GT-500 pumps in series...along with 1.25" fitting and hoses, where ever possible, and big enough ga wire to minimize V drops is probably going to be as good as it gets.
That will cost about the same as the Lingenfelter pump.
 

Pentalab

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It has 3/4" fittings.


I haven't run this exact test, but something like it. With the EWP150 (turbo pump) at 1.25" everywhere (a full system with IC, HE and hose) it moved 19gpm . I put a 1" ID 1" long restrictor at the IC (in and out) and flow dropped to 16.75gpm. If you run the turbo pump at 1" everywhere it flows 14gpm. So there is absolutely an improvement in running bigger lines and keeping the restrictions to a minimum. But, if you run the Turbo pump at 3/4" everywhere it flows 8.5gpm. So it takes a pretty good whack at 3/4".

Fuzzy math says that if you run the Turbo pump and everything at 1.25", but pout a 3/4" restriction in you get 11.4gpm. Fuzzy math though. But maths out that there is an advantage running 1.25" everywhere on a 3/4" restriction.

That said the 13' GT500 pump will have to work VERY well to be a better buy than the Turbo pump. The Turbo pump is a lot less money, it has 1.25" ports and I don't think the GT500 pump will out flow it. Maybe it will on a full 3/4" system, maybe. But I highly doubt it will at 1" and 1.25".


I have one here. That's the plan.




Interesting link. All that data is theory though correct?



Yeah, it's a BEAST! I'm skeptical that two GT500 pumps in series will outflow it though.


That will cost about the same as the Lingenfelter pump.

That's informative data you have collected so far.

I have not stacked 2 water pumps in series, but have done it with 2 x identical centrifugal air pumps, and yes the pressure (under load) goes way up. For folks who have oem 3/4" fittings and hoses on everything, adding a 2nd Bosch pump in series may well be a cost effective approach.

I'm stuck with 3/4" fittings and hoses on my 2010 M90 IC-degas-pump-HE loop. To modify all of it would be a real bitch of a job. Short term solution would be a 2nd pump in series, or a bigger pump..and /or 100% distilled water + water wetter in the loop. There is also an issue if a bigger pump will even fit where the oem Bosch pump resides..which is in front of the oem 18" tall x 21" wide Roush HE.... just down from the top right hand corner of the HE. Everything just barely fits as it. I don't have any more depth to play with.

Loads of room between He and AC rad. But the oem power steering cooler ( with it's circular fins) is a super tight fit, sandwiched between bottom of HE and the AC rad. I'd have to fab 4 x new shorter HE standoffs, then relocate the pwr steering cooler to... in front of the HE. Or re-locate any new IC pump assy altogether.

Per that fellow's analysis, 2 x Bosch pumps will flow 53% more. That should be easy to actually measure.

If you look at his heat xfmr info, note that 1 kw = 3150 btu's. You are correct though, it's all theory. Another method to extract more heat in the IC ( HE too) is to make it from copper, instead of Aluminum. Cu conducts heat way more than Al, but that's not the issue here, as you have shown that the IC is not the issue, it's the lack of flow rate through the IC. Cu is almost triple the weight of AL...so that's another issue, esp for a HE. As is, you are already extracting enough heat in the IC.... to boil the coolant. Using 100% distilled water + water wetter and /or a Cu Ic is probably pointless..... until the flow rate is increased by a substantial amount.
 
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Pentalab

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I will say that Pierburg pump used in the 13/14 GT500 is a huge improvement over the earlier Bosch pumps. With the Bosch pump, flow inside the reservoir was a "ripple". Install the Pierburg pump and flow inside the tank looks like a jacuzzi. Not the scientific flow data your looking for, but visually there no question the Pierburg flows "a lot" more than the Bosch.

This looks promising. Ripple vs jacuzzi. Sounds like double the gpm to me.
 
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hamish

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Looking forward to any results you find on this 2013/14 Gt500 Pump.
Good luck with the testing.
 

DiMora

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Any 13/14 GT500 pump results yet? Let's resurrect this thread.

I'm about to go with a Stewart EMP High Volume Intercooler Pump 25 Amp model number ST-1030085005P0005A because I know it is proven and I hate buying stuff twice (or in the case of pumps and intercoolers, 3 times now for me as I try new experiments with various setups). (It looks like Stewart EMP found out Lingenfelter was re-programming their pump and charging an extra $100.00, so now they do it themselves and sell if for the same price as the original pump ($450). Lingenfelter also sells that model number pump now since it has the "Lingenfelter" programming now right from the Stewart-EMP factory. The question now is does the 12/14 GT500 pump do as well as the EMP for less money ($250 shipped)?
 
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DiMora

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Anyone?
anyoned-anyone-isc-bueller-bueller-36072257.png


I send Jason (DOB) a PM...I'll let you know what he says if he doesn't post here.

My use case:

Roush TVS R2300
3/4" lines
Steeda Triple-Pass
fluid reservoir = Canton tank (ice box) in battery location
 
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eighty6gt

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I did not test my 2013 pump when I installed it - let's put it this way, I'm sure it's doing the job. I'd say the water doubled in velocity thru the lines. Easily.
 

Pentalab

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I did not test my 2013 pump when I installed it - let's put it this way, I'm sure it's doing the job. I'd say the water doubled in velocity thru the lines. Easily.

Everyone I talked to that swapped from the oem Bosch pump, used by Roush, also used on the 07-12 GT-500's.... to the 13/14 GT-500 pump, all report ( not very scientific) that the insides of the de-gas now resemble..a jacuzzi. IE: most are guestimating the flow doubled. And that's using oem 3/4" lines. If I got the story correct, the 13/14 GT-500 pump can use the same wiring, fuse, fuse rating...as the oem Bosch pump. Perhaps eighty6gt can comment. If you can get the 13/14 pump for c $250.00, it would be an effective way to increase flow a bunch...for not a lot of $$.

Per Justin @ VMP, the '20 gpm' mezziere flows slightly less than the oem Bocsh pump. The..'55 gpm' mezziere flows slightly more than the oem Bosch pump. That's with 3/4" lines though out. The bosh flowed aprx 4.4 gpm in the loop. Big difference between a pump's Un-loaded rating, with zero restrictions, and just dumping water to the ground...vs a myriad of bends with 3/4" lines, then the restrictions inside the typ IC and HE, etc. Not unlike fans and squirrel cage blowers for air. For fans+ squirrel cage blowers, they graph em from max CFM (no back pressure)..... all the way to what's known as..'cut off' ( zero CFM + max pressure).

What mezziere has done is quoted the no back pressure specs, which is useless info for a PD blower's IC /de-gas / pump / HE loop.
 
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Department Of Boost

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I did not test my 2013 pump when I installed it - let's put it this way, I'm sure it's doing the job. I'd say the water doubled in velocity thru the lines. Easily.

Depending on what blower you have your flow increased 57%-66%.

100% is double.
 

DiMora

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I just ordered a Stewart EMP E2512A pump to get the party started by increasing flow to my intercooler. I've been running a Meziere 20GPM pump, which I had previously tested with a flow-rate of 3.5GPM in my current setup (Canton battery ice-box and a Steeda Triple-pass heat exchanger with fans...Roush TVS R2300 blower with stock intercooler...3/4" plumbing).

To alleviate any confusion...Stewart has sold two versions of this pump with the same product number (E2512A)...but the model numbers behind that same product number are different.

They one you do NOT want is the older pump that has a lower amperage draw and runs at lower RPM. That one is the 1030002106 or "2106" pump.

You want the ST-1030002107 or "2107" pump...or to make things even more fun, it was also given a new model number of ST-1030085005P0005A

Originally, Lingenfelter was modifying the "2106" into a "2107"...and their price was ~$90 more than a "2106" for the added performance; then Stewart starting modifying them at the factory, so Lingenfelter now does no mods to it (to my knowledge) and sells it as it now comes from Stewart with the 25 amp mod.

Jegs, Summit, and others have it for sale all at the same price as Lingenfelter now...and although their website(s) show it as a "2106", you'll probably get a newer one "2107" or "P0005A" - which is what you want.

I called Jegs (which had it listed as a "2106") and they made a quick call to Stewart (from where it is drop-shipping) and they assured me that I will receive one labeled either ST-1030002107 or ST-1030085005P0005A - either of which is good!

I'll report back with pics when I receive the pump. They said it will ship in 5-7 days.

Jason from Department of Boost and I went back-and-forth via PM and he said the Stewart will flow a bit more than the OEM 13/14 GT500 pump ( P/N FMC-DR3Z-8501-A. ).

At this point, I hate buying things twice, so I went all-in even though the Stewart costs more.

I'll do a couple flow tests when I install it and report back. As a reference point, my old Afco double pass was flowing 3.0 GPM with a Meziere 20GPM pump; a swap to the Steeda triple-pass decreased heat exchanger restriction and increased my flow to 3.5 GPM. Those numbers are at charged battery voltage (13.5) and in my actual system with restrictions (dumping return line into a calibrated bucket instead of the Canton ice-box return for 30 seconds - while my wife poured fresh distilled water into the Canton...then doing the math to double that to a GPM rating) One could argue that 14.4 is the correct "running car" system voltage, but Mustangs vary voltage unlike other cars and I rarely see 14...around 13.5-13.9 seems like normal on my car. I suspect the Stewart probably steps-up the voltage to the pump anyway...that's what makes it work so well in addition to a design that works great under restriction.

Shane
 

Pentalab

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Described above. Dumped return line into calibrated bucket for 30 seconds. Gallons x2 = GPM.

This will be very interesting when you swap the '20 gpm' meziere for the stewart...then repeat the flow tests. Too bad you didn't have a 13/14 GT-500 pump to also compare to.
 

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