WE SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT NOTHING BUT THE RPM ACT!!!!!

[luillo]

IMHO! The EPA is more concerned with street driven vehicles not being in compliance, especially when it comes to removing any portion of the "OEM" emission control devices which technically has always been illegal from the very start, to begin with anyhow. As for vehicles used strictly for competition use only! Yes, I totally agree they shouldn't be a factor at all, being as they're in a controlled, off-road environment.



Yes, when a car is removed from street use completely, I totally agree against the EPA actions, but in favor if still used on the streets, no doubt about it!



How exactly are LT's more efficient than OEM if they're unable to pass OBDII emissions testing? Same also applies to high-flow cats as well, unless they're Kooks high-flow green cats in which they don't always pass OBDII emissions testing either!



Well there's a gray line between modifying cars strictly for competition and for the street. As mentioned earlier in this thread, I totally disagree with the EPA on vehicles used for off-road/competition use only, but do agree that street driven vehicles should be in compliance with the EPA.



^^^^ This I agree 100%




Once again, the EPA is only concerned when it comes to removing any portion of the "OEM" emission control system which technically has always been against federal law, to begin with. Therefore, nobody is saying that you cannot modify your car. If adding performance cams, heads, CAIs and superchargers? as long as they pass visual and emissions testing, then no problem. What do you think cars such as the 2020 Shelby GT500 and Dodge Challenger "Hellcat and Demon" come factory equipped with? they all include factory performance heads, cams, CAI's and blowers which have no problem in being 100% street legal and in compliance with the EPA.



That is total nonsense! As long as you're not altering/removing any portion of the factory emission control devices and the vehicle passes the OBDII emissions test? a performance calibration tune has nothing to do with it, unless it somehow disables the emission/02 monitors in which case wouldn't pass OBDII emissions testing, to begin with anyhow.



Once again, complete nonsense! As long as you're not altering/removing any portion of the factory emission control devices and the vehicle passes the OBDII emissions test? a performance calibration tune has nothing to do with it, unless it somehow disables the emission/02 monitors in which case wouldn't pass OBDII emissions testing, to begin with anyhow.



So let's indeed put it in perspective.

Once again, the EPA is only concerned when it comes to removing any portion of the "OEM" emission control system which technically has always been against federal law, to begin with. Therefore, nobody is saying that you cannot modify your car. If adding performance cams, heads CAIs and superchargers? as long as they pass visual and emissions testing, then no problem. What do you think cars such as the 2020 Shelby GT500 and Dodge Challenger "Hellcat and Demon" come factory equipped with? they all include factory performance heads, cams, CAI's and blowers which have no problem in being 100% street legal and in compliance with the EPA.



I do agree that if you live in a rural area without public transportation, it is indeed a necessity to have a car, however, you can survive without owning or having one, such as relying on friends/family members or neighbors that do own cars.

Are you sure you are following the information that has been since 2015. Regulations they want to start enforcing again. FORD, DODGE, etc. have their big money behinds any approvals and YES is possible. FOR THEM for us without manufactures risking fines for creating parts the EPA stated are illegal is game over.

The regulations was broad and they shoot it in a snikky way under the 600 plus pages because it was the easiest way to enforce it. Now with that they only have to go to the source and stop from ever get developed. That’s the current reality. It hasn’t been enforced hard but is coming.

That’s in true perspective!


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[06 T-RED S/C GT]

All I can say is from personal experience, my car passes the state emissions OBDII test, year after year which has an aftermarket tune with Saleen VI supercharger. As for my exhaust, it has the factory "OEM" cats with Borla ATAK axle back mufflers. Therefore, until my local Ford dealership states that my car no longer meets the eligibility requirements for passing the PA state inspection/emissions testing? I'm not going to get all bent out of shape worrying about it. As mentioned earlier in a previous post, I support the EPA requirements when it comes to street driven vehicles, but do not agree with them when it comes to vehicles used strictly for competition/off-road usage. That being said, I most definitely support the RPM act and will sign it!

 

[luillo]

All I can say is from personal experience, my car passes the state emissions OBDII test, year after year which has an aftermarket tune with Saleen VI supercharger. As for my exhaust, it has the factory "OEM" cats with Borla ATAK axle back mufflers. Therefore, until my local Ford dealership states that my car no longer meets the eligibility requirements for passing the PA state inspection/emissions testing? I'm not going to get all bent out of shape worrying about it. As mentioned earlier in a previous post, I support the EPA requirements when it comes to street driven vehicles, but do not agree with them when it comes to vehicles used strictly for competition/off-road usage. That being said, I most definitely support the RPM act and will sign it!

Respect your opinion and that’s all it matter that we support the hobby unless we truly don’t care. Thanks for signing and support because the regulation might be as easy as you are experiencing but could get worst if we all don’t tackle the rpm now.

Thanks again and share the SEMA link as much as you can!


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[OX1]

Response from my POS Sen.

Thank you for contacting me to express your support for the Recognizing the Protection of Motorsports (RPM) Act. Your opinion is very important to me, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to you on this critical issue.



As you may know, this legislation would prevent the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) from setting emission standards for any vehicle used exclusively in competitions. The RPM Act was introduced in the House and Senate in the last Congress. However, this bill has not been reintroduced in the 117th Congress.



In 2016, the EPA proposed to clarify that an existing exemption in the Clean Air Act for non-road vehicles pertains to certain competition vehicles like dirt bikes and snowmobiles, and that tampering with the emission control systems of motor vehicles has always been prohibited under the Clean Air Act. However, this proposed language was withdrawn and there are no current proposals of similar language.



Please be assured that I will keep your thoughts in mind should the RPM Act come before the Senate for debate or a vote.



Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance. I invite you to visit my website (http://menendez.senate.gov) to learn more about how I am standing up for New Jersey families in the United States Senate.

All I can say is from personal experience, my car passes the state emissions OBDII test, year after year which has an aftermarket tune with Saleen VI supercharger. As for my exhaust, it has the factory "OEM" cats with Borla ATAK axle back mufflers. Therefore, until my local Ford dealership states that my car no longer meets the eligibility requirements for passing the PA state inspection/emissions testing? I'm not going to get all bent out of shape worrying about it. As mentioned earlier in a previous post, I support the EPA requirements when it comes to street driven vehicles, but do not agree with them when it comes to vehicles used strictly for competition/off-road usage. That being said, I most definitely support the RPM act and will sign it!

​

I've heard that you can't pass in Jersey and many other states now with anything but a "factory" tune. Something about a communication error with the inspection machine. I am in the same boat. All emission stuff in and all monitors ready, but I could not use Roush tune with Phs 3 SC, as they only offered that for man trans. The Roush tunes are supposedly considered "factory", which is why you have to send in processor to get the tune (or Roush said I could have Ford dealer that sells Roush do it).

I do have Roush closed airbox (that comes with Phs 1), which uses a different mass air meter size/shape, so the Roush CARB approved tune would only work with that. They want $400 for the tune, which I'm told is pretty lame as far as TVS tunes go.

 

[GlassTop09]

MagnaFlow California Grade CARB Compliant Universal Catalytic Converter

This cat is CARB-compliant (true 50-state legal since CARB exceeds Fed EPA...my Stang is a legal OEM Fed EPA 49 state OBDII car so any CARB legal parts installed on it is essentially EPA overkill unless it is registered into a CARB OBDII adopted state\county or EPA adopts CARB OBDII nationally) EFN# 9FMXV05.4VEK, CARB EO# D-193-140 OBDII-compliant & is a direct fit (meaning it is properly sized for the max exhaust poundage output per 4 cyl engine bank displacement) for a 2005-2010 Ford Mustang GT\Bullitt (including the 2010 GT500 w\ the OEM 5.4L SC V8 according to MagnaFlow....this same cat SKU is shown to also be CARB compliant for up to a 2015 5.7L thru 6.4L Dodge Hemi V8 in Challenger\Charger among other makes\models as well....not just for the yr specific Ford Mustangs) in a universal package design so it can be legally fitted to this 05-10 S197 chassis so for having to be in the exact OEM position for CARB certification--not so much......all for the tidy sum of $770.00 per cat (you'd need 2 of these). Then you'd have to either install them yourself or pay someone to install them for you........so a decent guesstimate turnkey price is around $2,207.50 (including 8.125% sales tax, $500.00 shop install + 8.125% sales tax....forgot to account for cats shipping costs though.....).....that is, if you already have the existing mid pipe to install them into....especially if you have LTH's installed. I've measured my '09 GT's Kooks setup sometime ago & I know I have enough room to install these exactly where the existing cats are located in my Kooks SS Catted X-Pipe w\ 3 1\2" clearance from my trans crossmember if needed..... Yep the price is steep but the CARB-legal product does exist for public sale right now...............

Right off MagnaFlow's web site which you can purchase direct from them or you can get these thru Amazon as well.....for the same price as direct from MagnaFlow but if bought thru Amazon you get free shipping....FWIW.

The future....well we'll see. My plan is to buy these cats 1 at a time since due to the Fed EPA exemption for my NM county due to lack of sufficient population density which determines the number of registered vehicles that crosses the threshold to mandate Fed EPA vehicle emissions registraton compliance so it's left up to my local state county gov to decide.....so far no one's pushing for it yet & I don't have to wait for someone to force the issue on me....I can choose to go there myself. DOT is a whole 'nother story though.....if the diesel powered residential truck guys aren't smarter about this they're gonna get lumped in w\ the commercial guys under DOT & they certainly won't like that! All the EPA has to do is lower the GVWR for diesel powered trucks to force the DOT issue........

This kinda falls in line w\ RED09GT's post #125 from where I sit............ The question isn't whether some manuf's are making\supplying CARB-compliant performance parts to comply w\ the EPA for modern vehicles emissions cause they're out there........affordability of these CARB-legal parts for the avg law-abiding OEM car consumer who wants to daily drive then race it on the side & is not sponsored by a legal racing sanction (SCCA, Formula 1\INDY, NHRA, NASCAR, etc) is the #1 detriment to overall consumer compliance IMHO (entices non-compliance). But if we the consumer also fail to properly maintain all of our OEM vehicle's emissions equipment in proper working condition (includes the tune) regardless of the HP\TQ output or vehicle's usage, even a $770.00 CARB cert legal cat can\will fail OBDII if allowed to be operated outside of it's design limitations. The cats are really the big key for us car folks (cats & DPF filters along w\ PCM tune for the diesel folks) to the whole Fed EPA Clean Air Act compliance IMHO for modern PCM-controlled NA cars...FI is the big issue for aftermarket EPA compliance outside of OEM FI application (even the OEM's are limited in this area due to development costs vs sales profit concerns so where do we draw the aftermarket FI affordability\EPA compliance line as well?) & if needed, a trailer to legally haul our low budget highly modified weekend race toy over Fed\State hiways\roads to\from the Fed EPA legal race tracks cause if it's not being driven on Fed\State hiways & roads then there's no need for Fed EPA compliance other than what is required for the car to run at the race track, correct?

I think I remembered reading Juice posting in this thread about using a trailer.....................

The sad reality is that "we gotta pay to legally play".....or eventually pay the costs\fine for illegally playing. We have to make up our minds at some point to fully comply (or at least make a concerted effort) w\ the rules in order to keep the Fed EPA happy cause they ain't going away regardless of whether Red or Blue...even the rules that WILL come from the RPM Act if it does get passed by Congress & signed into law so if we won't follow the current EPA rules what's gonna suggest to the Fed EPA to trust us fellow citizens to follow the RPM Act rules if they get passed? Saying so w\o actually doing so means absolutely nothing.........

From the aftermarket performance parts manuf's, tuners then all the way down to us consumers.......

Think about that while we're petitioning for EPA rule changes to facilitate our car hobby cause I'm gonna predict right now that somebody won't be satisfied w\ all the rules being proposed to the EPA within the petitioned RPM Act & will try to find a way to go around them & somebody will be willing to pay for\use the illegal stuff illegally....if for no other reason it's just human nature to subvert the rules\laws if we're expected to abide by them when they are made\enacted....thus prove to the Fed EPA once again that our word as citizens can't be trusted when we get caught breaking the very rule changes we say we want.

Lord knows I hope\pray I'm proven to be wrong...........

My 2 cents to this thread. YMMV............

 

[Juice]

That "somebody" who wont be satisfied belongs to the few that brought this on us. And just to be clear, I am talking about those who "must delete emission parts" for that extra .6 HP......that you can never use on the street, but makes for great bench racing.

 

[Shaffe]

MagnaFlow California Grade CARB Compliant Universal Catalytic Converter

This cat is CARB-compliant (true 50-state legal since CARB exceeds Fed EPA...my Stang is a legal OEM Fed EPA 49 state OBDII car so any CARB legal parts installed on it is essentially EPA overkill unless it is registered into a CARB OBDII adopted state\county or EPA adopts CARB OBDII nationally) EFN# 9FMXV05.4VEK, CARB EO# D-193-140 OBDII-compliant & is a direct fit (meaning it is properly sized for the max exhaust poundage output per 4 cyl engine bank displacement) for a 2005-2010 Ford Mustang GT\Bullitt (including the 2010 GT500 w\ the OEM 5.4L SC V8 according to MagnaFlow....this same cat SKU is shown to also be CARB compliant for up to a 2015 5.7L thru 6.4L Dodge Hemi V8 in Challenger\Charger among other makes\models as well....not just for the yr specific Ford Mustangs) in a universal package design so it can be legally fitted to this 05-10 S197 chassis so for having to be in the exact OEM position for CARB certification--not so much......all for the tidy sum of $770.00 per cat (you'd need 2 of these). Then you'd have to either install them yourself or pay someone to install them for you........so a decent guesstimate turnkey price is around $2,207.50 (including 8.125% sales tax, $500.00 shop install + 8.125% sales tax....forgot to account for cats shipping costs though.....).....that is, if you already have the existing mid pipe to install them into....especially if you have LTH's installed. I've measured my '09 GT's Kooks setup sometime ago & I know I have enough room to install these exactly where the existing cats are located in my Kooks SS Catted X-Pipe w\ 3 1\2" clearance from my trans crossmember if needed..... Yep the price is steep but the CARB-legal product does exist for public sale right now...............

Right off MagnaFlow's web site which you can purchase direct from them or you can get these thru Amazon as well.....for the same price as direct from MagnaFlow but if bought thru Amazon you get free shipping....FWIW.

The future....well we'll see. My plan is to buy these cats 1 at a time since due to the Fed EPA exemption for my NM county due to lack of sufficient population density which determines the number of registered vehicles that crosses the threshold to mandate Fed EPA vehicle emissions registraton compliance so it's left up to my local state county gov to decide.....so far no one's pushing for it yet & I don't have to wait for someone to force the issue on me....I can choose to go there myself. DOT is a whole 'nother story though.....if the diesel powered residential truck guys aren't smarter about this they're gonna get lumped in w\ the commercial guys under DOT & they certainly won't like that! All the EPA has to do is lower the GVWR for diesel powered trucks to force the DOT issue........

This kinda falls in line w\ RED09GT's post #125 from where I sit............ The question isn't whether some manuf's are making\supplying CARB-compliant performance parts to comply w\ the EPA for modern vehicles emissions cause they're out there........affordability of these CARB-legal parts for the avg law-abiding OEM car consumer who wants to daily drive then race it on the side & is not sponsored by a legal racing sanction (SCCA, Formula 1\INDY, NHRA, NASCAR, etc) is the #1 detriment to overall consumer compliance IMHO (entices non-compliance). But if we the consumer also fail to properly maintain all of our OEM vehicle's emissions equipment in proper working condition (includes the tune) regardless of the HP\TQ output or vehicle's usage, even a $770.00 CARB cert legal cat can\will fail OBDII if allowed to be operated outside of it's design limitations. The cats are really the big key for us car folks (cats & DPF filters along w\ PCM tune for the diesel folks) to the whole Fed EPA Clean Air Act compliance IMHO for modern PCM-controlled NA cars...FI is the big issue for aftermarket EPA compliance outside of OEM FI application (even the OEM's are limited in this area due to development costs vs sales profit concerns so where do we draw the aftermarket FI affordability\EPA compliance line as well?) & if needed, a trailer to legally haul our low budget highly modified weekend race toy over Fed\State hiways\roads to\from the Fed EPA legal race tracks cause if it's not being driven on Fed\State hiways & roads then there's no need for Fed EPA compliance other than what is required for the car to run at the race track, correct?

I think I remembered reading Juice posting in this thread about using a trailer.....................

The sad reality is that "we gotta pay to legally play".....or eventually pay the costs\fine for illegally playing. We have to make up our minds at some point to fully comply (or at least make a concerted effort) w\ the rules in order to keep the Fed EPA happy cause they ain't going away regardless of whether Red or Blue...even the rules that WILL come from the RPM Act if it does get passed by Congress & signed into law so if we won't follow the current EPA rules what's gonna suggest to the Fed EPA to trust us fellow citizens to follow the RPM Act rules if they get passed? Saying so w\o actually doing so means absolutely nothing.........

From the aftermarket performance parts manuf's, tuners then all the way down to us consumers.......

Think about that while we're petitioning for EPA rule changes to facilitate our car hobby cause I'm gonna predict right now that somebody won't be satisfied w\ all the rules being proposed to the EPA within the petitioned RPM Act & will try to find a way to go around them & somebody will be willing to pay for\use the illegal stuff illegally....if for no other reason it's just human nature to subvert the rules\laws if we're expected to abide by them when they are made\enacted....thus prove to the Fed EPA once again that our word as citizens can't be trusted when we get caught breaking the very rule changes we say we want.

Lord knows I hope\pray I'm proven to be wrong...........

My 2 cents to this thread. YMMV............

The problem with that though, is even though that cat is carb certified and compliant. It is technically illegal to remove a functioning factory cat even if it is replaced with a compliant part.

and @06 T-RED S/C GT I am sure your car does pass visual and OBD inspections. Let me ask you this, when you got your supercharger put on did you remove the factory airbox? Because if you did you technically removed factory emissions equipment, and if someone really did a deep dive they would see that.

That is the problem, the EPA doesn't know what the hell they are doing with these guidelines, people testing wouldn't know what to look for but because they have no grey area just about anything could fall into that illegal category.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

That "somebody" who wont be satisfied belongs to the few that brought this on us. And just to be clear, I am talking about those who "must delete emission parts" for that extra .6 HP......that you can never use on the street, but makes for great bench racing.

Tell that to Steeda and every other car chasing the N/A record.

 

[Juice]

Tell that to Steeda and every other car chasing the N/A record.

Looks like the EPA is telling them! So I dont have to.

 

[tjm73]

When an EO# is issued it covers anything related to the installation and use of the part. So if the EO# covers the install of a blower from the air intake to the intake manifold it also accounts for the change or removal of the CAI emissions device on an '05 for example.

 

[Pentalab]

This 2010 mustang will be 1st and last mustang I ever own....(novelty has worn off after 10 years).
The sad part is, IF I ever have to replace the LT's, or hi-flow cats down the road, will they still be available ?? Will SCT still be in business? Will you even be able to buy aftermarket heads, cams, TB, CAI, etc? Will JDM / VMP / Lund still be in business.....or will they be restricted in what they can do for 'tunes'.... like account for different tire diameters, better fuel mileage etc. Lito, and anybody else outside the USA, might be the only ones left that can tweak anything. This could easily be the demise of hot rodding. What will be left is perhaps the usual suspension / brake mods, wheels, decals, visual (all show, no go). And who can afford a 2020/2021 GT-500, dodge demon, vette, etc.

For bonafide off road cars, they will be in the extreme minority.

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

Looks like the EPA is telling them! So I dont have to.

Its sad as a supposed car person that's how you feel.

 

[Shaffe]

When an EO# is issued it covers anything related to the installation and use of the part. So if the EO# covers the install of a blower from the air intake to the intake manifold it also accounts for the change or removal of the CAI emissions device on an '05 for example.

Touche

But also only if said part has an EO number

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

I feel bad for people who depend on any kind of automotive work to support their families.

 

[Juice]

Its sad as a supposed car person that's how you feel.

This has nothing to do with my feelings. Those who ignored the law created this. I atleast keep my emission shit on my cars.
I do have non carb approved parts (lt and high flow cats). I feel that is way more compliant than deleting shit just because it "robs hp".

 

[JEWC_Motorsports]

This has nothing to do with my feelings. Those who ignored the law created this. I atleast keep my emission shit on my cars.
I do have non carb approved parts (lt and high flow cats). I feel that is way more compliant than deleting shit just because it "robs hp".

Honestly if i lived in a County in Texas that smogged stuff i would have never bought any newer sports car. Every state is different in what they check for so that makes it difficult for some and easy for others. Thats why i have my Lightning, its exempt from these stupid laws.

 

[Juice]

Honestly if i lived in a County in Texas that smogged stuff i would have never bought any newer sports car. Every state is different in what they check for so that makes it difficult for some and easy for others. Thats why i have my Lightning, its exempt from these stupid laws.

We have the "under 5k miles per year" exemption, not an issue now as we both WFH. All my cars were exempt this year. Our daily Grand Marquis used to do 12-15000/year. We put 2900 on it last year. lol

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

Respect your opinion and that’s all it matter that we support the hobby unless we truly don’t care. Thanks for signing and support because the regulation might be as easy as you are experiencing but could get worst if we all don’t tackle the rpm now.

Thanks again and share the SEMA link as much as you can!


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In regards to my particular situation as previously mentioned, it is fact, not just an opinion!

The problem with that though, is even though that cat is carb certified and compliant. It is technically illegal to remove a functioning factory cat even if it is replaced with a compliant part.

and @06 T-RED S/C GT I am sure your car does pass visual and OBD inspections. Let me ask you this, when you got your supercharger put on did you remove the factory airbox? Because if you did you technically removed factory emissions equipment, and if someone really did a deep dive they would see that.

That is the problem, the EPA doesn't know what the hell they are doing with these guidelines, people testing wouldn't know what to look for but because they have no grey area just about anything could fall into that illegal category.

Actually, it was my local Ford dealership who installed my Saleen VI supercharger back in 2006. The dealership back then was also an official Saleen dealership as well. All parts installed from the Saleen VI supercharger kit include an "OEM" Saleen factory airbox lid which is 100% C.A.R.B certified and my PCM was also required to be sent to Saleen to be re-flashed with their calibration which is also C.A.R.B legal as well. If you look at my images? you'll notice the stock airbox is still in place with the "OEM" Saleen airbox lid. Therefore, technically speaking, no factory emissions equipment was ever removed lol. That being said, my vehicle meets all EPA and C.A.R.B EO# requirements.

When an EO# is issued it covers anything related to the installation and use of the part. So if the EO# covers the install of a blower from the air intake to the intake manifold it also accounts for the change or removal of the CAI emissions device on an '05 for example.

You're exactly 100% spot on.

This 2010 mustang will be 1st and last mustang I ever own....(novelty has worn off after 10 years).
The sad part is, IF I ever have to replace the LT's, or hi-flow cats down the road, will they still be available ?? Will SCT still be in business? Will you even be able to buy aftermarket heads, cams, TB, CAI, etc? Will JDM / VMP / Lund still be in business.....or will they be restricted in what they can do for 'tunes'.... like account for different tire diameters, better fuel mileage etc. Lito, and anybody else outside the USA, might be the only ones left that can tweak anything. This could easily be the demise of hot rodding. What will be left is perhaps the usual suspension / brake mods, wheels, decals, visual (all show, no go). And who can afford a 2020/2021 GT-500, dodge demon, vette, etc.

For bonafide off road cars, they will be in the extreme minority.

For those who can't afford a 2020/2021 GT500, Dodge Demon or whatever? there's always used 2007-14 GT500's and Dodge Challenger "Hellcats" that are more affordable.

Touche

But also only if said part has an EO number

If the said part included with the EO# replacement kit as in supercharger? then all parts related to that replacement kit are also EO# legal as well.

We have the "under 5k miles per year" exemption, not an issue now as we both WFH. All my cars were exempt this year. Our daily Grand Marquis used to do 12-15000/year. We put 2900 on it last year. lol

We also have the same 5k miles per year emissions exemption here in PA as well, however, the vehicle can technically fail visual inspection if any portion of the "OEM" catalyst equipment has been removed!

 

[RED09GT]

Rhetorical Question:
Are there any cams with a Carb EO available for any modular fords or coyotes? Or intake manifolds-other than the whipple supercharger or the edelbrock TVS?

 

[luillo]

It would be great to have a list for emissions legal mods, and maybe even market a Thor parts AFTER the RPM Act becomes law


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