Learning to make fast go fast!

[Department Of Boost]

If I installed my lockouts full advanced what would be the stock centerline for the same cams? How much movement is there in the VCT?

It's something like 40deg I think, so it's not that.

What are you using for lockouts?

What math are you using to calculate the centerline?

Have you tried checking the timing against the valve events? That is the way I do cam timing. It gives you something to check the time against and it's more "realistic" because it's not a calculation but an actual event. After getting stuck a few times I started working with the valve events as my primary.

I could walk you through a foolproof method in about 5min on the phone. LMK.

 

[BruceH]

If I installed my lockouts full advanced what would be the stock centerline for the same cams? How much movement is there in the VCT?

60 degrees. It goes from 0 to 60 retarded. The intake centerline is going to be 102 degrees with the cams installed straight up. You can put the dial indicator on the intake lobe and go 180 degrees out on the reading. That's what I resorted to with mine.

 

[Department Of Boost]

You guys do cam timing weird

 

[05stroker]

It's something like 40deg I think, so it's not that.

What are you using for lockouts?

What math are you using to calculate the centerline?

Have you tried checking the timing against the valve events? That is the way I do cam timing. It gives you something to check the time against and it's more "realistic" because it's not a calculation but an actual event. After getting stuck a few times I started working with the valve events as my primary.

I could walk you through a foolproof method in about 5min on the phone. LMK.

I am using the Comp Cams method.

First I find top dead center with a piston stop. I insert the stop and rotate each direction and find the center, the I find full intake valve lift by rotating clockwise till the intake valve is at full lift, then set the gauge to .000. Then I rotate the crank counter clock wise to .100, then clock wise to .050 and record the number. The I continue to rotate the crank clock wise past .100 to .050 on the closing side and record the number agin. Then add the two and devide by two and I get 118.

60 degrees. It goes from 0 to 60 retarded. The intake centerline is going to be 102 degrees with the cams installed straight up. You can put the dial indicator on the intake lobe and go 180 degrees out on the reading. That's what I resorted to with mine.

Thanks, I will check it out tomorrow.

 

[BruceH]

You guys do cam timing weird

I know I did. It still worked though. Sort of, lol.

 

[TurboX]

I am using the Comp Cams method.

First I find top dead center with a piston stop. I insert the stop and rotate each direction and find the center, the I find full intake valve lift by rotating clockwise till the intake valve is at full lift, then set the gauge to .000. Then I rotate the crank counter clock wise to .100, then clock wise to .050 and record the number. The I continue to rotate the crank clock wise past .100 to .050 on the closing side and record the number agin. Then add the two and devide by two and I get 118.



Thanks, I will check it out tomorrow.

Same way I did it too

 

[Department Of Boost]

I am using the Comp Cams method.

First I find top dead center with a piston stop. I insert the stop and rotate each direction and find the center, the I find full intake valve lift by rotating clockwise till the intake valve is at full lift, then set the gauge to .000. Then I rotate the crank counter clock wise to .100, then clock wise to .050 and record the number. The I continue to rotate the crank clock wise past .100 to .050 on the closing side and record the number agin. Then add the two and devide by two and I get 118.

WTF! Comp says that? There are so many ways that's wrong it makes my face hurt.

PM me you # and I will hook you up with the easiest/most accurate way of doing cam timing.

 

[wht67]

WTF! Comp says that? There are so many ways that's wrong it makes my face hurt.

PM me you # and I will hook you up with the easiest/most accurate way of doing cam timing.

Sounds like you need to do a write up! I am going to need to do this and I am clueless after reading this.

 

[lito]

WTF! Comp says that? There are so many ways that's wrong it makes my face hurt.

PM me you # and I will hook you up with the easiest/most accurate way of doing cam timing.

I don't find max lift but essentially I do the same, if it is a +.500 lift cam, I use average of 0.500 points of both ramps.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Well, you guys enjoy doing it the hard way then

 

[lito]

Show us a better/simpler way then, lol.

You can't measure the lift peak with precision that is why you opt for an average of a ramp defined height and average.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Show us a better/simpler way then, lol.

You can't measure the lift peak with precision that is why you opt for an average of a ramp defined height and average.

If someone can post a picture of the 550's cam card up here I can do a quick outline.

The MotoGP race in on in 15min though, so it may be a bit.

 

[lito]

Post #1067 here.

Why bother with the race, Marc will just win it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Department Of Boost]

Why bother with the race, Marc will just win it.

And he did. Man, watching that kid ride is like watching a magic show. Sideways into the corners with the rear tire 6-8” off the deck......every lap, ridiculous! The old man gave him a run though. Good to see Rossi up front and battling.

Anyway, I was taught the easiest way of doing it by a Factory Ducati WSBK engine builder. At the time I was doing a LOT of cam timing on Ducati's, and it's a long process on those. And you have to be EXACT. On the race motors the PTV clearances were so tight that you could make contact with the cams out 3-4deg.

You work off of you valve opening and closing deg numbers.

Roll the motor over till you get the intake valve open .050. Check the degree wheel. Is it at 16deg BTDC? If so, good. Keep rolling the motor over till the valve opens all the way, starts closing and stop at .050. Is it at 40deg ABDC? If so, good. Your cam is in “straight up”. There is no calculating what is going on. You know exactly when the valve is opening and closing, which is what counts. If you want to advance/retard the cam just add/subtract from the opening and closing numbers how much you want to move it, set the cam up and recheck. Easy peasy.

Remember a while back when I said that the phasers (that are not locked) will move a little while checking cam timing and screw up your readings? And you said you have never seen it? Well you won’t checking it the way you do. I was finding that the valve would open late but close on time. At first I thought the cam was ground wrong (this is another good reason to do it with opening/closing events, you can do a “cam check”), but that wasn’t it. It took me a while to track it down but the phaser was moving slightly as the valve tried to open, which made the valve open late. If I had been doing the “math” I would have “averaged” out how much the phaser was moving and never known it.

NASCAR is on!

 

[lito]

Told ya.

That was with a low lift cam, with a 500s, kaput, it just jumped out. (Here is the correction post I made where I pointed my mistake).

These are all with locked cams, no VCT.

Measuring opening/close points is a lot more imprecise due to the low rate of lift/degree of the ramps at that point, that is why you work more inclined sides of the ramp where the lift/degree ratio is a lot higher, giving you more degree resolution. This is as an imprecise as trying to find ICL by peak lift.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Measuring opening/close points is a lot more imprecise due to the low rate of lift/degree of the ramps at that point, that is why you work more inclined sides of the ramp where the lift/degree ratio is a lot higher, giving you more degree resolution. This is as an imprecise as trying to find ICL by peak lift.

Well, if that is your contention (which I'm not buying if your tools are set up right) you can always check one form of measurement against the other and see if you get the same numbers. If you don't then there is more measuring/adjusting to do.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

 

[lito]

Well, if that is your contention (which I'm not buying if your tools are set up right) you can always check one form of measurement against the other and see if you get the same numbers. If you don't then there is more measuring/adjusting to do.

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

Is not my contention, is what I've been tough and explained by people that do this for a leaving (timing engines and designing cams), there are several ways to do this, having more resolution in the degree side helps being more precise, probably you had better tools than we do when working there which would obviously help. That area (0.000+, 0.006 to 0.050) has been a discussed topic for years because of its really low lift/degree resolution, ramps are too slow there so you cover a lot of degree space for actual valve lift, error induced is big, as you go higher in the lift/degree ratio, you reduce this error to the minimum.

At the end, “There's more than one way to skin a cat.”

 

[Department Of Boost]

Is not my contention, is what I've been tough and explained by people that do this for a leaving (timing engines and designing cams), there are several ways to do this, having more resolution in the degree side helps being more precise, probably you had better tools than we do when working there which would obviously help. That area (0.000+, 0.006 to 0.050) has been a discussed topic for years because of its really low lift/degree resolution, ramps are too slow there so you cover a lot of degree space for actual valve lift, error induced is big, as you go higher in the lift/degree ratio, you reduce this error to the minimum.

At the end, “There's more than one way to skin a cat.”

Please don't think that I am saying the way you do it is "wrong". I agree that more resolution is better. That said, I would be surprised if many people have tooling that is precise enough to make the resolution a factor. I've made custom tooling for everything I've done because it's hard to get your gear set up to measure +/- 1deg consistently. Getting your gear set up and consistent is 90% of the job.

In Billy's case I think he may be having a "big picture" issue though. If he runs my method (not really "mine", you know what I mean) he can figure out real quick if he is in the ball park at least. The biggest advantage my method has is it removes all the variables. There are no questions what is happening when you measure at the valve. Once he has it in the stadium he can always use your method to get it within .5 deg or so.

 

[BruceH]

That is why I say my cams are degreed "sort of" I couldn't get repeatable numbers but I was always within 2 degrees of advertised icl so I just locked them and sold the tfs gears, lol. The process was repeated on different cylinders and it was always within 2 degrees, that was as good as I could get it.

Jason, you should do a write up. Anything to make it easier to understand would be nice. I know that once I had done it the process wasn't as intimidating but reading through the printed instructions was challenging.

 

[Department Of Boost]

That is why I say my cams are degreed "sort of" I couldn't get repeatable numbers but I was always within 2 degrees of advertised icl so I just locked them and sold the tfs gears, lol. The process was repeated on different cylinders and it was always within 2 degrees, that was as good as I could get it.

Jason, you should do a write up. Anything to make it easier to understand would be nice. I know that once I had done it the process wasn't as intimidating but reading through the printed instructions was challenging.

And then there is that^^^^^^

Even if you do get repeatable numbers within 1-2 deg what are you to do with them using TFS gears? In a perfect world you would be working with infinitely adjustable cam sprockets, but I have never seen any for the Mod motors that don't scare the crap out of me.

In the situation outlined by Lito I get where he is coming from. I would love to be able to set anything up to a degree that fine. But in that situation you are dealing with incredibly good tooling and measuring equipment (I'm assuming a cam guy/cam company has really good stuff) with the ability to adjust the timing down to .25 deg or less. In the real world, or even the not so real world where let's say my tooling/measuring equipment is at getting things within 1 deg is as much as can be expected. And what do you do with 1 deg aside from kinda know where your at. Like you did yours. My 2007 is the same. My cams are within 1deg of each other and I didn't end up using the TFS gears. But I do know where they are at, so that is nice.

With some very, very nice tooling and setting up motors that were on the edge I used to do the Ducati stuff to .5 deg. No closer than that. Street bike stuff was "sloppy" at 1 deg. They had infinitely adjustable "gears" though (they have belts so it's a little different).

Next time I do cam timing (which may be soon) I'll take some pics and write something up.