Mutha Thumpr cams - lockout or limiter?

[jbpellegrino]

I am in the process of rebuilding a 200k mile 4.6 3v engine from a 2009 mustang GT. The shortblock is more or less finished with:

- OEM Boss 302 forged steel rods (CR3Z6200B)
- Diamond 4.6 3V -9.5cc Dish Competition Series Forged 2618 Alloy Pistons
- OEM Cast 8 Bolt crank

The block was bored 0.020" over and has been zero-decked.

I am currently waiting on brand new heads to arrive because the cam tower and cap journals were shot. I will be ordering Comp Cams Mutha Thumpr NSR 234/254 next. Comp Cams specifies "requires cam phaser upgrade," and later gives a part number linked to their Phaser Limiter kit. Would Livernois cam phaser lockouts be an acceptable substitute? To me, it seems like a cheaper option that yields more long-term insurance against VVT failure. I will also admit that I would be more comforted knowing the valves would stay farther away from the pistons after the zero-deck.

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

I'd recommend the CompCams limiters/lockouts because they're sturdy and won't move. The Livernois lockouts are fine but the springs on their limiters have been known to break, resulting in piston to valve contact. That would be a very, very bad thing!

The moral of the story is never cheap out on internal engine components.

 

[jbpellegrino]

Hello Dino!

I've been following your angelfire website for most of my rebuild.

I was looking at their lockouts specifically:



I don't see a spring in this kit, unless you're referring to the spring inside the cam phaser. I've purchased the Ford Performance Camshaft Drive Kit: M-6004-463V and intend on modifying those phasers.

With this information, would you still opt for the Comp Cams limiter kit? I'm looking between no VVT movement and 20° given these options.

 

[Badd GT]

I built the same engine, sort of. I used the flat top Diamond 9.8:1 pistons not the dished and Boss rods. Ran 127400 and 127500 cams in engine along with Livernois limiters. During one cam swap I replaced phasers and discovered Livernois limiter springs were missing/disinigrated. Switched to the Comps after that. No ptv contact, the 2 blue aluminumn limiter blocks still inside phaser prevents that, but the cam advance/retard couldnt have been functioning properly i would think. I'd stay away from the Livernois limiters,

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

Hello Dino!

I've been following your angelfire website for most of my rebuild.

I was looking at their lockouts specifically:

View attachment 107027

I don't see a spring in this kit, unless you're referring to the spring inside the cam phaser. I've purchased the Ford Performance Camshaft Drive Kit: M-6004-463V and intend on modifying those phasers.

With this information, would you still opt for the Comp Cams limiter kit? I'm looking between no VVT movement and 20° given these options.

I think given the fact that you've zero decked the block, resulting in 0.0125" less PTV clearance, you might want to use lockouts rather than limiters. The Livernois lockouts will do fine.

 

[cavero]

Hello Dino!

I've been following your angelfire website for most of my rebuild.

I was looking at their lockouts specifically:

View attachment 107027

I don't see a spring in this kit, unless you're referring to the spring inside the cam phaser. I've purchased the Ford Performance Camshaft Drive Kit: M-6004-463V and intend on modifying those phasers.

With this information, would you still opt for the Comp Cams limiter kit? I'm looking between no VVT movement and 20° given these options.

Livernois sells a Phaser limiter kit too (not just lockouts), so it'll still let them move 20 deg. I used to have a set of these on my car for about 30k miles before the engine rebuild (not related to the phasers at all) and they seemed fine. My shop also said they never had any issues with them. Doesn't mean that other people haven't though. I read something on this site about it once but can't seem to find it again.
Livernois limiters:

Client Challenge

Comp camps limiters:

https://www.compcams.com/cam-phaser-limiter-kit-for-05-ford-4-6-5-4l-modular-3-valve-cpg.html

 

[whitmanink]

Hello Dino!

I've been following your angelfire website for most of my rebuild.

I was looking at their lockouts specifically:

View attachment 107027

I don't see a spring in this kit, unless you're referring to the spring inside the cam phaser. I've purchased the Ford Performance Camshaft Drive Kit: M-6004-463V and intend on modifying those phasers.

With this information, would you still opt for the Comp Cams limiter kit? I'm looking between no VVT movement and 20° given these options.

i used these in my loc outs for my mutha thumpers,, dont be foolish and over pay,
i got a kit off amazon that had the hold down wege tool and cam loc tool ,ect for like $70

do not use the phaser limiters,,that allow it to move like 10deg ,they are known to fail!!!!,
and livernois has a video on how to open up and installl these loc outs
again amazon sells a kit with these in that i got,,

one of the few times paying less is a good thing
obviously a tune is needed.

btw********* you do need CMDP ,, you cannot have the CMP (charge motion plates) installed with these cams

 

[whitmanink]

I'd recommend the CompCams limiters/lockouts because they're sturdy and won't move. The Livernois lockouts are fine but the springs on their limiters have been known to break, resulting in piston to valve contact. That would be a very, very bad thing!

The moral of the story is never cheap out on internal engine components.

the one time i can say your wrong, my cheap silver loc outs are just as good as the $200 kit
i would never use the limiters that let it move 10deg..

that said ,, you are still the man dino!!!!!!

 

[whitmanink]

Amazon.com

mine was like $30 more but i wanted to show u what i got.
it helped with timing and installing new cam gears as well

 

[Dino Dino Bambino]

i used these in my loc outs for my mutha thumpers,, dont be foolish and over pay,
i got a kit off amazon that had the hold down wedge tool and cam lock tool ,ect for like $70

do not use the phaser limiters,,that allow it to move like 10deg ,they are known to fail!!!!,
and livernois has a video on how to open up and installl these loc outs
again amazon sells a kit with these in that i got,,

one of the few times paying less is a good thing
obviously a tune is needed.

btw********* you do need CMDP ,, you cannot have the CMP (charge motion plates) installed with these cams

Agree with all of the above!
CMDPs, underdrive pulleys, and headers would all be good additions.

the one time i can say your wrong, my cheap silver loc outs are just as good as the $200 kit
i would never use the limiters that let it move 10deg..

that said ,, you are still the man dino!!!!!!

Thanks!
I did say that the Livernois lockouts would be fine though. There's nothing to go wrong there and there's no need to pay extra for the Comp lockouts. I just don't like the Livernois limiters 'cause those springs have been known to break. Even if there's no PTV contact, the cam timing would be messed up and the engine would run like crap. If you need phaser limiters, the Comp units ARE worth the extra money.

 

[whitmanink]

Agree with all of the above!
CMDPs, underdrive pulleys, and headers would all be good additions.



Thanks!
I did say that the Livernois lockouts would be fine though. There's nothing to go wrong there and there's no need to pay extra for the Comp lockouts. I just don't like the Livernois limiters 'cause those springs have been known to break. Even if there's no PTV contact, the cam timing would be messed up and the engine would run like crap. If you need phaser limiters, the Comp units ARE worth the extra money.

absolutely agree , if limiter are needed ,
but id shy away from them just because some were known to come apart,,
com cams were more reliable in the limiter sector ,, but id rather loc them out all together because they require 3.73 or 4.10 gears which in turn get u out of the lost tq range from the cam profile,,

which again , stock gearing is rough with these , you need to be higher in the rev range ,, so 3.73 or 4.10 are needed as well as loc out (or limiters) and cmdp and a tune,,

 

[jbpellegrino]

Thanks for all of the info! I will be ordering the Livernois lockouts later this afternoon. I shouldn't need the timing chain wedge (although I've already got one from a Hot Rod cam install) since the motor is being built on a stand with the timing cover off.

btw********* you do need CMDP ,, you cannot have the CMP (charge motion plates) installed with these cams

CMDPs, underdrive pulleys, and headers would all be good additions.

Thanks for the recommendations! The car that the motor will be going into (a 2006 mustang GT) already is running BBK longtubes and BBK high-flow cats. I have already purchased an ATI Super Damper, so underdrive pulleys are out of the equation.

The car is now and will be tuned by Lito after the swap.

 

[whitmanink]

im also tuned by lito ,, you wont be disappointed