The Great Intercooler Water Pump Test

JeremyH

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E=IR (voltage equals current times resistance) that will get you started. You would need to know the wattage and resistance of the pump motor. Then you can calulate the amperage change with the voltage change. You can find calcualtors on line so you dont even have to write anything down lol
 
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Department Of Boost

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E=IR (voltage equals current times resistance) that will get you started. You would need to know the wattage and resitance of the pump motor. Then you can calulate the amperage change with the voltage change. You can find calcualtors on line so you dont even have to write anything down lol

I'll never get that. Manufactures don't give that stuff out.

I think I just need to boost that little sucker up and see what happens.:beerchug2:
 

JeremyH

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If its not listed or written on the pump motor you can calculate it. If you know input voltage and can measure current draw with a multimeter that will tell you the resistance. Then just plug in the higher voltage and calculate the current draw.
 

Department Of Boost

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If its not listed or written on the pump motor you can calculate it. If you know input voltage and can measure current draw with a multimeter that will tell you the resistance. Then just plug in the higher voltage and calculate the current draw.

I think I could finger that out (with your instruction).

What do you think I should use to add/regulate the voltage? For a test? A BAP?
 

JeremyH

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Probably the cheapest route you can find 20amp baps used for around $100.

I was working on marketing my own fuel pump voltage booster but all said and done cost wasnt down where I wanted it.
 

Pentalab

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No rocket science required. 17v /14.2v = 1.197
Your 14.2 vdc pump will suck another 19.8% more current..when run on 17 vdc..at least on paper.

Has anybody actually measured the V, right at the pump itself, with pump running normally ? If it's only like 11-12 vdc, increasing wire ga would be a big improvement.

A bap would work...provided you don't get a huge V drop from undersized wire ga. Otherwise the increased current draw from the 17 vdc will be partially negated by the increased V drop from the oem small ga wire.

The Bosch /gt-500 pump will run all day at 14.4 vdc. I don't think it will burn up with another 19.8% more current flowing through it. It would be very easy to test..to see if the pump motor started cooking. What would be most interesting would be to measure increased actual flow rate, if any. I could see a 5 gpm pump increasing to 6 gpm with a 17vdc bap in use.

The 13-14 GT-500 pump is supposed to be a substantial improvement over the 07-12 Bosch version. That might make more sense vs a 07-12 pump + bap. On paper, any 2 identical pumps plumbed in series, nose to tail should result in a higher flow rate with a given load restriction. 2 pumps, wired in parallel, + a bap, and big ga wire should result in the ultimate ticket.
 

Dubstep Shep

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Wiring the pumps in parallel will do little for flow if the restrictions are too severe on the system.

Running them in parallel will double your effective flow for a given system, but won't change the overall pressure that the system can pump at. So if you're already pushing the limits of pressure in the system, running another pump in parallel does nothing.

Now running the pumps in series should double the pressure range, but the flow stays the same. Since most systems are too restrictive, this is the way to go.
 

eighty6gt

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Shep didn't Jim cover all that? You plumb in series wire in parallel. The wiring is obvious, this isn't some hack home theatre system...
 

Dubstep Shep

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Shep didn't Jim cover all that? You plumb in series wire in parallel. The wiring is obvious, this isn't some hack home theatre system...

He may have, but I was letting Pentalab know it's a bad idea to pump in parallel vs series.
 

Department Of Boost

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No rocket science required. 17v /14.2v = 1.197
Your 14.2 vdc pump will suck another 19.8% more current..when run on 17 vdc..at least on paper.
Good info, thanks.

Has anybody actually measured the V, right at the pump itself, with pump running normally ? If it's only like 11-12 vdc, increasing wire ga would be a big improvement.
We did not. The pump in question (Davies Craig EWP150) already had 12ga going to it. I did not set the V at the pump end of the harness though.

A bap would work...provided you don't get a huge V drop from undersized wire ga. Otherwise the increased current draw from the 17 vdc will be partially negated by the increased V drop from the oem small ga wire.
If I get to do this test I'll bump it to 10ga. I'm sure that will take care of business.

The Bosch /gt-500 pump will run all day at 14.4 vdc. I don't think it will burn up with another 19.8% more current flowing through it. It would be very easy to test..to see if the pump motor started cooking. What would be most interesting would be to measure increased actual flow rate, if any. I could see a 5 gpm pump increasing to 6 gpm with a 17vdc bap in use.
I'm not looking to over-spin the GT500/Bosch. But if I set up to over-spin the EWP150 I may as well do the GT500/Bosch at the same time. I also highly doubt that pump life would suffer that much either. Even if it gets cut in half it would still last forever in "play car" terms. And if they do burn up every 50K who cares, they're cheap.

As far as GPM increase we saw the GT500/Bosch go from 4.9 to 5.1gpm at 13.2 and 14.2v respectively. So not a huge jump. If you extrapolate that out you would be looking at about 5.7gpm at 17v. I don't think that little impeller is suited to being over-spun like some other pumps are.

On the other hand the EWP150 went from 7.5 to 8.5gpm at 13.2 and 14.2v respectively. Extrapolate that out and you could be looking at 11.5gpm. Now that would be cooking with gas.

The 13-14 GT-500 pump is supposed to be a substantial improvement over the 07-12 Bosch version.
It couldn't be worse! LOL! I would bet money it doesn't make more than 6.5gpm though. Things have to get flat out crazy to see the kind of improvements that are needed. The Lingenfelter gets the job done but that thing is the equivalent of a 13.5:1, 8,000rpm race motor.

That might make more sense vs a 07-12 pump + bap.
I'm not much interested in the OEM offerings. There is already stuff available that will outpace them. That said I would like to test a 13' GT500 pump so people can deal with actual facts, not speculation.

On paper, any 2 identical pumps plumbed in series, nose to tail should result in a higher flow rate with a given load restriction.
We did some goofing around with this. There were small improvements, but almost immeasurable. We didn't do a lot of goofing around though. I would like to do more, and maybe at some point I will. But really this was a IC test for us. That is the data we really wanted. The pump data was a bonus. We don't make pumps or sell pumps and probably never will. I posted this pump data as a "gift" for the board members so they can make better informed buying decisions. At the end of the day it doesn't matter to me what they buy/run though.
 

CPRsm

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Bumpity

Just finally got far enough into a build to prime the intercooler system. It's the massive Stewart EMP. Gotta say, it's fucking retarded how much this pump moves. In addition, I was out in left field on how much head pressure we had. Was hoping about 2psi, but w two cores stacked side by and the water path being 180 degrees, I was a little worried it could be higher. Yep lol. Measured at 5.5psi!! The pump moves so much the inlet is actually cavitating a little bit. It literally looks like a jacuzzi in the tank w no ice in there! Lmfao
You can see the flow chart from their testing, were are around 35gpm w 5.5psi head pressure. Our voltage was close to theirs at 13.7 before running the pump, and we had 1.25 lines instead of the 1in lines like they tested. It's flat regarded what this pump moves.

Wait one for an edit or two. Phone doesn't like to store the info while I grab links


attachment.php


Comes ready for 1in lines, needed bigger! Drilled and tapped for a pressure testing port. Welding a casting doesn't always look the best but what can ya do?

image-76.jpg



Big bitch needed a bracket mount. Used the fpdm studs to line the inlet up nicely to prevent cavitation

image-77.jpg


image-78.jpg


All done. Throw a clamp on or two and fill w 9 gallons lol. Pardon the mess, you know how it goes

image-79.jpg
 
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Department Of Boost

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Yeah, that sucker is a monster!

I'm not sure you can use the Lingenfelter chart to estimate pump flow. Actually I'm sure you can't. That chart doesn't match what I got for date, not even close really. I can't estimate what you are seeing for flow at 1.25" because I never ran the EMP at that line size. I would be very skeptical that is moves 35gpm. It's possible, but I'm skeptical.

"Testing" can be skewed depending on the testers desires, the methods used, the rig used, etc. Lingenfelter has a vested interest in the EMP kicking butt (and it does). But it is a test done by them to sell their product.

When I tested it was for IC information with the bonus being good water pump info. I could care who's works best.

Have you seen the Meziere IC pump they had at SEMA? That could be interesting.
 

Department Of Boost

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I just went and looked at my data. If I extrapolate what I have out 1.25 would have made about 26gpm. Pretty damn good!

If you're running ice water you're going to need a bigger tank!
 

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Got any details?

Not really, it was a non running prototype. Here is blurb about it an two pictures.

Sounds really expensive.

http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/power-adders/sema-2014-new-billet-intercooler-pump-from-meziere-enterprises/

Here is some video:


That thing is HUGE!!!!! I'm hoping to have one to test some time this winter. It better be really fricken good though to justify what that has got to cost and that it looks like a packaging nightmare. We'll see what they come up with.
 

CPRsm

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Yeah, that sucker is a monster!

I'm not sure you can use the Lingenfelter chart to estimate pump flow. Actually I'm sure you can't. That chart doesn't match what I got for date, not even close really. I can't estimate what you are seeing for flow at 1.25" because I never ran the EMP at that line size. I would be very skeptical that is moves 35gpm. It's possible, but I'm skeptical.

"Testing" can be skewed depending on the testers desires, the methods used, the rig used, etc. Lingenfelter has a vested interest in the EMP kicking butt (and it does). But it is a test done by them to sell their product.
What did you numbers and parameters look like? Did you test the reprogrammed version? This is their big reprogrammed beast. The voltage we ran at was close to theirs, but bigger lines. Not sure what it flows exactly, just basing it off their chart. But can tell you if flows more than anything I've seen before. Couldn'thelp but laugh as it powered up and turn the water tank into a damn jacuzzi lol



I just went and looked at my data. If I extrapolate what I have out 1.25 would have made about 26gpm. Pretty damn good!

If you're running ice water you're going to need a bigger tank!
Should be ok, we'll see. Have 8 gallons in the system right now and not full. The 55gal mez pumps are doing pretty well. At about 1000rwhp we see an 18 degree rise. So not unhappy, just gonna need as much as possible for this setup
 
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Department Of Boost

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Did you test the reprogrammed version? This is their big reprogrammed beast.
Yes, the re-programmed beast.

The voltage we ran at was close to theirs, but bigger lines. Not sure what it flows exactly, just basing it off their chart.
Their charts don't match mine. For example, their 55gpm Meziere supposedly put out about 36gpm at 1psi (effectively zero restriction). We saw 25gpm.

Three things:

-We never tested the EMP at 1.25" so I don't have any real world flow data there.

-When things are tested on different rigs/cars (we built a test stand, we didn't run it in a car) you will get different results. The only way to see how that 1.25" EMP performs against a 1" EMP, 55 Meziere, etc is to put it on my rig. Otherwise all we are doing is speculating. I left the rig intact for this very reason. I can conduct more testing at any time.

-At the end of the day the flow meter tells the tale. Voltage use, pressure drop, etc are all ingredients in speculation of performance, but it is not real data. Just like dyno graphs and weights do not make 1/4 mi times.

But can tell you if flows more than anything I've seen before. Couldn'thelp but laugh as it powered up and turn the water tank into a damn jacuzzi lol
No doubt that sucker is a monster. I had to completely fill my "reservoir" to make sure I didn't have a whirlpool and start sucking air!


Should be ok, we'll see. Have 8 gallons in the system right now and not full. The 55gal mez pumps are doing pretty well. At about 1000rwhp we see an 18 degree rise. So not unhappy, just gonna need as much as possible for this setup
How much boost is 1000hp for you? Boost is the measure that cooling capacity should be expressed in. A 2.5L motor making 1000hp will have a LOT higher temps than a 5.0L motor making 1000hp. Double actually (rough math).

I'm very curious if you see a substantial temp drop with how you are set up.
 

Dubstep Shep

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What about the thermal efficiency of the compressor? Wouldn't that effect your cooling needs as well? for example 30psi from a whipple doesn't need as much cooling as 30psi from a kenne bell.

Also, I'm not understanding the whole power and temp being related at a 1:1 linear ratio. That smaller motor would see a lot more compression to fit the same amount of air in half the volume.
 

Department Of Boost

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What about the thermal efficiency of the compressor? Wouldn't that effect your cooling needs as well? for example 30psi from a whipple doesn't need as much cooling as 30psi from a kenne bell
Yes, efficiency plays into it. For example a 2.3L Whipple making 700hp will be making a lot more heat per psi than a 3.4L Whipple making 700hp. One is spinning 19,000rpm, the other 11,750rpm.

A screw is slightly more adiabatic efficient than a turbo.

A turbo is more more adiabatic efficient than a roots.

I was basing my above statement on having a quality compressor that is sized correctly for the job. Something has to be a given to make broad comparisons like that.

Also, I'm not understanding the whole power and temp being related at a 1:1 linear ratio. That smaller motor would see a lot more compression to fit the same amount of air in half the volume.

Power and temp have nothing to do with each other. They are not related.

Boost and temp are what is related to each other. In a perfect world a properly sized screw/turbo will make about 12deg/psi. This is a constant all things being equal. Double the psi, double the heat being generated. So a 2.5L making 15psi will have the same discharge exit temps as a 5.0L making 15psi. The 5.0L will make twice the power though.

Those are theory numbers^^^^. Of course if you start throwing all sorts of variables in you can make the math come out different. But it is a good explanation of how boost makes heat and how it relates (or doesn't) to power.

People try and make it all complicated like there is some sort of magic going on with different compressors, different combos', etc. But at the end of the day the basic concept is dead simple.
 

Dubstep Shep

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I hate using PSI as a baseline comparison. For me I would rather use actual air mass being moved as that's what truly determines your power. There's a relationship there in each unique setup, but there are too many factory for my liking to make a meaningful comparison.

Disregarding parasitic losses from the blower, engine size is irrelevant to power if the same blower is used running the same RPM. You and I have had this discussion.

So when you say a 2.5L running 15psi and a 5.0L running 15psi, are you saying the smaller motor has a blower moving half as much air as the big motor? That's what I'm getting from it.
 

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