Stroke, bore, and motor integrity questions

ford20

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There are a lot of reasons to go with dry sump besides just oil starvation.

Yes, I am well aware of that. I'm just asking if it is a necessity for you? I'm just not 100% certain the benefits would outweigh the costs unless you are spending all your time with the car out on the track. If I recall correctly there was a company that made kits for the 5.4, 4.6, and 5.0 called avid or maybe it was pro weld but I never really did look at how much their kit cost. I would imagine though somewhere close to 2k but I may be wrong in that.
 

Dubstep Shep

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Yes, I am well aware of that. I'm just asking if it is a necessity for you? I'm just not 100% certain the benefits would outweigh the costs unless you are spending all your time with the car out on the track. If I recall correctly there was a company that made kits for the 5.4, 4.6, and 5.0 called avid or maybe it was pro weld but I never really did look at how much their kit cost. I would imagine though somewhere close to 2k but I may be wrong in that.

Costs aren't a concern at this point. It's about performance and safety. Oiling is a top concern there.

The whole setup would be around 3k. Pro weld sells a kit that I would likely use.
 

s8v4o

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Good luck finding a 5.8L block, I just sold mine.

I searched and yeah it seems to be discontinued. Meanwhile MMR still has just the block listed on their website for $3999.99. Wonder if they can actually get it?
 

Dubstep Shep

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I searched and yeah it seems to be discontinued. Meanwhile MMR still has just the block listed on their website for $3999.99. Wonder if they can actually get it?
MMR and Mod Max Racing appear to have them. I'd rather see about a GT block though. I'm sure one will pop up on ebay
 

Dubstep Shep

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Anyone know anything about these blocks?

http://www.modmaxracing.com/product_p/fmsm6010-m54a.htm

Says it's based off the Ford GT block...

I did find where the Ford GT block would have to be machined for a starter, but it's already setup for dry sump. Dunno if there are really any advantages to it being pre-setup for dry sump though. Fromm looking at the dry sump system the oil pump and routing would be the same anyways since it's all external.
 

Dubstep Shep

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Welp here's what I've figured out during my research.

The 2011+ GT500 blocks are essentially updated Ford GT blocks with better oil drainback, a starter mount, and wet sump oiling. As far as the rest of the block design, the GT block has a few weird things going on in the valley the GT500 block doesn't, which causes me to wonder if the GT block would even work with the R-Spec. All the research seems to be saying the GT500 block is actually better because of the improved oil drainback. As far as strength it appears they're the same.

Here's a link to the GT500 block I'm talking about: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/fms-m-6010-m54a/overview/

Near as I can tell, the difference between the wet sump and the dry sump is the wet sump has an oil passage where the pump would be machined out and the dry sump does not. No big deal there.

I've managed to get a line on a few of both block types. The GT block is $5,225 and the GT500 block can be had for about $3,500. Also, I'm talking to MMR about a GT500 block and it's worse than pulling teeth.

Thoughts?
 

05yellowgt

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A friend just aquired a few low mileage 11-12 GT500 longblocks. He is selling at least one now and I think he's going to upgrade the rotating assemblies with better rods and maybe pistons sell those as upgrades for GT500 owners. I'm not sure if he is going to tear down the longblocks and sell individual parts, but I could ask.
 

Dubstep Shep

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A friend just aquired a few low mileage 11-12 GT500 longblocks. He is selling at least one now and I think he's going to upgrade the rotating assemblies with better rods and maybe pistons sell those as upgrades for GT500 owners. I'm not sure if he is going to tear down the longblocks and sell individual parts, but I could ask.

If you wouldn't mind asking that would be awesome!
 

thump_rrr

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Since I committed to the DOB R-Spec, I've been looking for ways to improve on my current motor. A lot of specifics are up in the air as this project is a ways off, but I'm trying to do some research and ask questions now so I can start to form an idea of the final goal and cost.

Concern #1 is going to be strength. Without filling the block, this is gonna be tough. My goal is to max out the 3.4L Whipple on e85 with a higher compression ratio. Best guess is 1200-1400hp. Why? Top speed and mile drag race. For road race I'm going to be running a much lower boost setting. I want to stick with an aluminum block for weight savings on the road race track, and I also don't like how the iron Boss setups have fewer main bolts. I feel like with enough tricks and $$$ it should be doable. I'm also looking into putting larger head studs in and O-ringing the block to keep the heads on.

Concern #2 is performance. Coatings, displacement, etc. Basically maximizing the amount of power I can get through changes in the motor.

I'm for sure doing a dry sump system with a billet oil pan, a DSS mains brace, a full front thust bearing with a billet plate where the oil pump used to go, and a rear main seal billet plate. Also thinking about cryo treatment and WPC treatment for everything. I'm also modding the cooling system so both banks run at the same temp.

I'm looking into wet sleeving the block with Darton MID sleeves, which opens up some unique possibilities. The MID sleeves apparently increase the overall strength of the block, while also increasing bore and cooling capacity. Their bore specs are 92-95mm. Of course, these are Dartons claims and I'm still looking into them. For the time being, I'm assuming they're correct and looking at my further options.

So with that I can easily run a larger bore and unshroud the valves. Not sure on the exact bore needed to accomplish that, but I would like to run at least that large. If Darton comes back and tells me I can max out the 95mm bore, then I may go that route.

The other question I have is stroke. I would love to do a 3.800" stroker, but I have some concerns about the integrity of that. I've been reading some engine books lately, and some people have concerns about the strokers. Chief among them is the stability of the piston in the bore at higher RPMs since with a stroker it comes further out of the bore at the bottom. Again, I would love to have more displacement, but not at the expense of integrity. Any experience here?

Minimum displacement with stock stroke length and the MID sleeves at 92 mm comes out to 292 cubic inches, a fair improvement. 95mm with stock stroke is 311 cubes. To me anything 5.0 or bigger is a big step up, especially if the sleeves improve cooling and strength while they're at it.

Maximum displacement with the 95mm bore and a 3.8 stroke is 334 cubes. Idk if that's been done on an aluminum block. Could be sketchy.

What're everyone's thoughts? Obviously there are big performance gains from unshrouding the valves, but once you're there is there really anything to be had from further boring and stroking?
Have you seen this article?
http ://www.svtperformance.com/?p=12644
 

v6tungsten

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A friend just aquired a few low mileage 11-12 GT500 longblocks. He is selling at least one now and I think he's going to upgrade the rotating assemblies with better rods and maybe pistons sell those as upgrades for GT500 owners. I'm not sure if he is going to tear down the longblocks and sell individual parts, but I could ask.

Will all the 3v head and computer work on the 11-12 5.4 block? It would be nice to have an aluminum 5.4l with 3v heads in my car.
 

Dubstep Shep

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Will all the 3v head and computer work on the 11-12 5.4 block? It would be nice to have an aluminum 5.4l with 3v heads in my car.

As far as I know, the only real differences in the shortblocks is the deck height. The rest is mostly the same, similar to how the bellhousing bolt arrangements are identical.

The only difference is the shape of some of the cooling and oil passages. I'm trying to get a GT500 block sooner rather than later so I can confirm, but that's my understanding.
 

Dubstep Shep

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And yet...



You really are a masochist, aren't you?


:poke:

Hahaha not exactly. I just wanted a block price and they were trying to sell me on some of their shit. Here's the email exchange. I wasn't about to argue with the guy about the sleeves, I just wanted a damn price. The funny part is I can get the same block for $500 less from Summit

Here's the email exchange:

ME:
Hello,
I'm looking for an aluminum 5.4L engine block, preferably the Ford GT Supercar block, but I'm also interested in the newer GT500 blocks if you have any. Thanks in advance!

MMR:
We have 3 2011 blocks in stock (the strongest in our opinion when sleeved) , we offer the sleeving process if you wish to make it the 5.8 liter or handle more power. Let us know how we can help!

ME:
I was planning on doing Darton MID sleeves and letting them do the sleeving process.

What would the price be for one of those 2011 blocks?

MMR:
While the darton sleeve will work it is not suggested. We had sealing issues and block integrity issues above 1500HP, the MMR pro Mod dry sleeve keeps the blocks integrity between each bore and can never leak water into oil. We only use the wet (MID) sleeve on the Iron blocks and that is because it is the only option. Here is a link to a 5.8 MMR pro Mod block picture, notice it still has the bridges between the cylinder, this greatly enhances block stability and cylinder roundness. Unfortnately the Darton sleeve does not allow this.

http://www.modularmotorsportsracing.com/DS1.jpg

Let us know how we can help

ME:
Can you send me prices for just the block by itself? I'm trying to compare prices at the moment.

MMR:
With or without sleeves?

ME:
Shoot me prices on both if you can so I can make a good comparison please.

MMR:
Stock block is $3999, with MMR Pro mod sleeve (any bore size) is $6399


The best part is Darton told me they have had exactly ZERO issues with motors that they have personally put the MID sleeves in. Zero, none, nada, zilch. They offer a lifetime warranty.

Just another case of MMR fucking something up.
 

v6tungsten

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As far as I know, the only real differences in the shortblocks is the deck height. The rest is mostly the same, similar to how the bellhousing bolt arrangements are identical.

The only difference is the shape of some of the cooling and oil passages. I'm trying to get a GT500 block sooner rather than later so I can confirm, but that's my understanding.


would the deck height mess with my saleen supercharger I have on the car now? seams i couldnt run my current setup...
 

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