Tire debate & 3V power limits - thread clipped

Dino Dino Bambino

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  • STAFF EDIT - ALL OFF TOPIC POSTS FROM OTHER THREAD MOVED HERE - CARRY ON

My goal of 550-600 is just based on what a stock 3v 4.6 can handle. I’ve heard 450-500 at the wheel tops.

According to Brenspeed the stock 3V connecting rods can handle up to ~450rwtq so ~565rwhp is possible if you keep the revs limited to 6500rpm.

 
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Dennis Thomas

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According to Brenspeed the stock 3V connecting rods can handle up to ~450rwtq so ~565rwhp is possible if you keep the revs limited to 6500rpm.

Sweet, great post, they have an 560hp kit for my e-force super charger too. Exactly the range I was looking for. Thanks
 

Midlife Crises

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Street Comps do not stick very well. Youd be better off on Nitto G2's
Nitto G2s are useless for acceleration. They do not get sticky when heated. They just melt. I can spin them with ease in third gear.

Sweet, great post, they have an 560hp kit for my e-force super charger too. Exactly the range I was looking for. Thanks
You should think long and hard about how soon you intended to assemble a stronger bottom end. That 560 kit should put about 500 to the wheels. More than the powdered metal rods and cast pistons were made for, not to mention the clutch and trans. Keeping the revs down is a real problem because a blown 4.6 is a hell of a lot of fun above 6,000 RPM.
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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Sweet, great post, they have an 560hp kit for my e-force super charger too. Exactly the range I was looking for. Thanks

http://www.brenspeed.com/efstage1.html

The E-Force is a different type of supercharger from the Paxton but as long as you're still below 450rwtq, have a good tune, and use good quality premium fuel, you should be OK.
Here's an otherwise stock 2008 Bullitt with the same Edelbrock Stage 1 kit and it put down 471rwhp & 431rwtq. That's 535hp at the crank if you factor in a 12% drivetrain loss instead of the 15% that Brenspeed typically uses.

 

JJ427R

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Street Comps do not stick very well. Youd be better off on Nitto G2's
I disagree with this. If cold yes, but most tires talked about on here don't grip when cold. I've run 275/35/20 street comps (all 4 corners) on the track the last 6 years and they work great, one of the best tires for the money. It's definitely not a Michelin, but also half the price. They are also not directional so you can rotate em. Usually get mine cheapest thru Summit Racing.
Long track at BIR with the MT's.
 

Pentalab

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http://www.brenspeed.com/efstage1.html

The E-Force is a different type of supercharger from the Paxton but as long as you're still below 450rwtq, have a good tune, and use good quality premium fuel, you should be OK.
Here's an otherwise stock 2008 Bullitt with the same Edelbrock Stage 1 kit and it put down 471rwhp & 431rwtq. That's 535hp at the crank if you factor in a 12% drivetrain loss instead of the 15% that Brenspeed typically uses.


Don't push your luck with high boosted PD blowers....esp with cars that are > 50 k miles. (05-10 cars). The oem rods are pretzel sticks. They will eventually succumb to metal fatigue. PD blowers are instant TQ, and essentially a flat boost curve. Those FRPP PD blower setups for the 05-10 cars came in 2 x versions, 9 psi..and 11 psi. The 11 psi version typ did 499 rwhp. Plenty of those setups that windowed the block....on low mileage engs. IMO, don't exceed 8-9 psi...if you want it to last. LT's (albeit expensive) is another option to greater boost. I have 482 /470 crank hp/tq..with only 5.8 psi..and LT's + twin 62mm TB + 94 tune on my 2010 M90.
 

09KR0045

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Michelin Pilot Sport 4S. They hook when warm for hard street use and track day use.
They are the best available tech right now. I have them on 2 Porsches and my KR.

About the 4.6 engine HP I ran a 550 Whipple kit in an 07 SGT/SC that dyno'd 493hp at the tires, ran a 12.033 1/4 on BFG Street tires for 20,000 miles and MANY track days and 1/4 mile events. I sold the car with the stock clutch and never once had an engine issue other than a squeaky idler pulley bearing. When ever I street drove the car I promise it was not easy and full of boost as much as possible.

The problem I saw was people running lean and then boom.
 

Dino Dino Bambino

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Don't push your luck with high boosted PD blowers....esp with cars that are > 50 k miles. (05-10 cars). The oem rods are pretzel sticks. They will eventually succumb to metal fatigue. PD blowers are instant TQ, and essentially a flat boost curve. Those FRPP PD blower setups for the 05-10 cars came in 2 x versions, 9 psi..and 11 psi. The 11 psi version typ did 499 rwhp. Plenty of those setups that windowed the block....on low mileage engs. IMO, don't exceed 8-9 psi...if you want it to last. LT's (albeit expensive) is another option to greater boost.

That's why you stick to a limit of 450rwtq, and even that is only safe with optimized air fuel ratios and timing advance plus minimized IATs (efficient intercooling) to prevent detonation. I'd limit boost to 7psi at peak TQ with stock exhaust manifolds, and not bother installing LT headers as they're going to be of no use if you're sticking with the stock short block and a self-imposed maximum 450rwtq or less.
If you're using a PD blower, 7psi will also be your maximum boost limit. If you're using a centrifugal, boost builds with rpm so while maximum boost might be as much as 11psi at 6500rpm, it'll be only 6-7psi at 5000rpm and that'll still keep maximum TQ at just under 450. The maximum HP number with a centrifugal will be higher because of the increased boost at higher rpm, and that's fine if want the extra HP (and TQ) above peak TQ rpm and don't mind trading away TQ at lower rpm.
 

Pentalab

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That's why you stick to a limit of 450rwtq, and even that is only safe with optimized air fuel ratios and timing advance plus minimized IATs (efficient intercooling) to prevent detonation. I'd limit boost to 7psi at peak TQ with stock exhaust manifolds, and not bother installing LT headers as they're going to be of no use if you're sticking with the stock short block and a self-imposed maximum 450rwtq or less.
If you're using a PD blower, 7psi will also be your maximum boost limit. If you're using a centrifugal, boost builds with rpm so while maximum boost might be as much as 11psi at 6500rpm, it'll be only 6-7psi at 5000rpm and that'll still keep maximum TQ at just under 450. The maximum HP number with a centrifugal will be higher because of the increased boost at higher rpm, and that's fine if want the extra HP (and TQ) above peak TQ rpm and don't mind trading away TQ at lower rpm.

That was one of the best mods I did...installing LT's, blatantly obvious increase in tq. JBA titanium ceramic coated SS LT's...and mating JBA hi-flow catted H. The JBA lt's are longer than kooks..and are optimized to shift the TQ to lower rpms....good for my street use. Boost was same 5.8 psi, b4 + after the LT/hi-flow catted h install. On the 2010 M90, blower doesn't make the.. 'whine' that the 05-09 m90's do. CAI is on driver's side...and real short. HE is 18" tall x 21" wide..(same HE as the Roush TVS-2300 blower's).... get's hit with air from both upper..+ lower grille. IAT's drop with blower on..... non issue.

Bad drone @ 1900 rpm..and way too loud with FRPP FRS-500 mufflers.... so in went a pair of pypes SS M80's resonators...just b4 the rear axle. Problems solved.

I still have the smaller 2.57" blower pulley (+ mating 90mm idler), but never installed em. I can still spin the new 305mm MPSS rears. I got all the power I can handle. 0-100 mph is pretty damn quick as is. Typ hwy use would be 50-80 mph, or 65-100 mph. 150 mph is a non issue... but wind resistance is bad > 110 mph.

Centrifugal blowers typ build boost to the square of the rpm. U don't get the big tq hit at idle or low rpm's, like a PD blower. My 2010 is an auto. 2nd gear is 14% lower than 2nd gear in a manual. 3rd gear in the auto is 16.5% lower than 3rd gear in a manual. 4th gear is the same 1:1 ratio. So I left the 3.31 rear gears alone. The manual would need a 3.73 rear gear to equal the 3.31 in the auto..(2nd). The manual would require a 3.90 rear gear to equal the 3.31 in the auto...(3rd). Where I lose out is in 4th gear..with my 3.31 rear gear. That's a long slog from 140 kph to 240 kph...all in 4th gear. 2nd is maxed out at 100 kph. 3rd is maxed out at 140 kph. (6k rpm shift points). (240 kph =149.9 mph... also 6k rpm in 4th gear).
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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Never understood why more folks don't use a wider tire at the rear. Hell, or even up front.

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We have been offering an 18x11" wheel package for the S197 since 2012 - and it doesn't require spacers, long wheel studs, and doesn't "poke" the tire past the fenders.

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Nothing improves traction like really wide tires on these cars. Below is a pic of a set of wheels and Nitto Envo (aka: garbage) tires from a customer's Mustang that upgraded to our big stuff.

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Stock 19x9 wheels with 275mm tires vs 18x11 Forgestar F14's wearing a set of 295mm BFGoodrich 295/35/18 Rivals (we later moved to 315/30/18 for these cars).

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You can never have "TOO MUCH" tire on a 3500+ pound V8 powered Mustang. :)
 

JJ427R

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You can never have "TOO MUCH" tire on a 3500+ pound V8 powered Mustang. :)
Actually that is incorrect, you can have too much tire.
Kenny Brown Performance Cars and Coffee just had a video posted Saturday on his facebook page regarding springs, tires, tire temps, and discusses how you can have too much tire for your car. You don't want slicks with a stock suspension or brakes. It's definitely worth a watch.
He's also starting a group called Kenny Browns Speed Society where he will have weekly discussions. You can join on his facebook page as well.

https://www.facebook.com/kenny.brown.performance/?__tn__=,d,P-R&eid=ARDzDTuLxlu_JFVCtbHDPNSds0bPeEUGbpOngtKo9MgU5lVfR2PI4PkJbONhntLLjH4XTsWpcmptb_tR

Forgot to mention last week he had video of Caster Camber plates.
 

JJ427R

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You can never have "TOO MUCH" tire on a 3500+ pound V8 powered Mustang
Dave Zeckhausen of Zeckhausen Racing (US StopTech distributor) explained to me how you can have too much tire for your brakes and vise verse. If you have too much tire for your brakes you're going to eat up your brakes. Too much brake for your tire and you'll flat spot tires. Also engineering of stock suspension is not designed for slicks, you'll eat up slicks faster.
 

Norm Peterson

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If you've got too much tire for the brakes, you don't have enough brakes for the car.

We're not down in the Miata weight class where there isn't enough weight or power to get way-oversized tires up to temperature.


Norm
 

Juice

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Not to be too picky, but a tire too wide but same height as your skinny stock tires wont make a difference for the brakes. Going with a taller than stock tire will work the brakes harder. But not wider. To say nothing about more agressive pads.
 

Norm Peterson

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Kenny Brown Performance Cars and Coffee just had a video posted Saturday on his facebook page regarding springs, tires, tire temps, and discusses how you can have too much tire for your car.
Link goes to his site, not the video, and I can't tell which of his videos is the one you're talking about without sitting through enough wrong ones first. Need a date or description of the thumbnail at least. Not having a fb presence may or may not have anything to do with this, but that is what it is.


Norm
 

Racer47

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I watched a little. He rambles on forever. I don't have the patients.

Plus, slick tires will always be faster, even on stock suspension. Sure its not ideal. Sure stiffer springs and more camber would be faster still. But stickier, wider tires always wins.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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If Kenny Brown or anyone in the motorsports world is telling people - especially Mustang drivers! - that they can have "too much tire" width, well then he has lost even more relevence in this industry than I had thought.

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JJ I know he is your hero and that his jacking rails give YOU two seconds a lap, but for the rest of us - THE TIME CLOCKS DON'T LIE.

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I can easily bury Kenny or JJ or anyone else selling those "small tires are better" nonsense with real data, results, and lap times. When we started competing in our S197 in 2010 we were on little 265mm tires, due to class limits.

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Going to an inch wider wheel and tire, the car got faster and easier to drive. Tires lasted longer, too.

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As we went to 18x11 then 18x12" wheels and 315mm tires... guess what? The car got faster and easier to drive, and tires lasted longer. Braking was not effected.

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With 335 and 345 tires, wanna guess what happened? The car got faster and easier to drive, and tires lasted longer!

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Car after car, class after class, lap record after record, wins and more wins... wider tires LOWER LAP TIMES and INCREASE TIRE LIFE. It is not an opinion. It is not "theory". It is factual and I have thousands upon thousands of data logged laps to prove it. At all power levels. With and without aero. Street tires and R-compounds. WIDER IS ALWAYS BETTER.

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If there is a tire width where cars start to slow down, in autocross or track use, we haven't found it yet. And we've tried! :)

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STOP LISTENING TO KENNY BROWN - HE HASN'T RACED ANYTHING OR POSTED ANY REAL DATA IN AGES. He sells trinkets and doo-dads, and nobody should listen to his tire advice. I am not allowing people like JJ to muddle this forum with more of his nonsense. WE AREN'T BUYING WHAT HE'S SELLING! :p

hugs and kisses,
 

JJ427R

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STOP LISTENING TO KENNY BROWN - HE HASN'T RACED ANYTHING OR POSTED ANY REAL DATA IN AGES. He sells trinkets and doo-dads, and nobody should listen to his tire advice. I am not allowing people like JJ to muddle this forum with more of his nonsense. WE AREN'T BUYING WHAT HE'S SELLING!

Sorry if your feelings got hurt. Every builder/racer has their own ideas on how to build car. Kenny has his, you have yours. I'm only posting information I see as useful in the conversation. The OP and others can take it as he/they wish.

Kenny together with his late son Paul won the 2011 World Challenge Championship. He is a highly respected Mustang guru as well as race car driver, and you' be lucky to have half the stuff he has done on your resume.

He is still in business building race cars and selling parts, evidently with the Caster Camber Plates it's the same "trinkets and doo dads" that you currently manufacture and sell!

I'm only informing people on what I feel is relevant to a topic on this forum. People can do what they want with it, just as you have above showing us a bunch of pictures of cars that show us nothing at all, and spewing out negative comments about myself as well as your business competition as you have no other defense than to start calling people names. You show your true character in these forums.

Kenny is far from my hero. AJ and Mario are in that realm but not Kenny.
I've actually posted a thread on this forum on not trusting some of his business practice, so once again you better have your facts straight before you start throwing out stupid ass accusations.
https://www.s197forum.com/threads/a...kenny-brown-and-fluidyne.134659/#post-2427447

Have a wonderful day.
 

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